ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

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Battuta

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Originally Posted by godrulz

Predestination is not generally a contingency.
Predestined, by definition, is "certain to happen because God or another force has decided that it will." Macmillan's Dictionary 0-333-96675-9

I doubt you could come up with a decent example anywhere in which predestination could be a contingency.

The other things God predestined are sure to happen. Believers will be adopted as sons. Believers will be conformed to God's Son.

I can't imagine one possible benefit you could have arguing against predestination, or denying that Christ, the lamb without blemish or defect, was chosen before the creation of the world, but revealed in these last times.

In my opinion, your argument detracts from the open view.
 

godrulz

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Battuta said:
Predestined, by definition, is "certain to happen because God or another force has decided that it will." Macmillan's Dictionary 0-333-96675-9

I doubt you could come up with a decent example anywhere in which predestination could be a contingency.

The other things God predestined are sure to happen. Believers will be adopted as sons. Believers will be conformed to God's Son.

I can't imagine one possible benefit you could have arguing against predestination, or denying that Christ, the lamb without blemish or defect, was chosen before the creation of the world, but revealed in these last times.

In my opinion, your argument detracts from the open view.

I would suggest election is corporate, rather than individual. God predestines that all who believe in the Son will be saved. He does not predestine from eternity past that Bob or Joe or Sam will be elect or non-elect (double predestination). It is also not necessary to assume that God predestines from eternity past. He could have predestined future judgments in Revelation after creation and the Fall, not trillions of years ago. This would fit the idea of God experiencing an endless duration of time rather than a timeless eternal now.
 

ChristisKing

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Here is a comparison:

1A Christ foreknown before the creation of the world:
-1 Peter 1:18-20

1B Christ known before birth
-Isaiah 49:1,5

2A Individuals foreknown before the creation of the world:

(Empty set)....ahhhh not quite;

ACT 13:48
ROM 9:23


2B Individuals known before conception, or from birth, and chosen for service:

-Samson in Judges 13:5
-Jeremiah in Jer. 1:5
-John the Baptist in Luke 1:13-17
-Paul in Gal. 1:15

3A Believers in general known before the creation of the world:

-Ephesians 1:4,5,10,11,13 Paul says we were chosen in Christ before the creation of the world, but also says you were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked ....

3B Believers in general known from "the beginning"

-2 Thess 2:13,14 Here we can accept "the beginning" to be before the creation of the world, though it is not specified. But we note the individuals were called through "our gospel" and Paul's participation in the gospel, so he could call it ours, is very recent at the time of writing.

3C Believers in general foreknown
-Romans 8:29-30 Events here are spread out over time. We haven't been glorified yet.

To me 1B is the exception. This is probably due more to progressive revelation than anything else. Maybe Isaiah is setting up some possible "double fulfillments."

What you try to say about Paul could not apply to Jeremiah and Samson. I prefer to leave them sitting together in group 2B.

But what group would you put Cyrus in? Isaiah prophesied the Persian King Cyrus by name 150 years before he was born and that as a pagan, who did not know God, he would deliver the Jews to rebuild Jerusalem.

ISA 44:28 That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.
ISA 45:1 Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;

So it is not literally in the womb that God sets people apart, and we would be silly to say its 150 years from the womb. God knows all things from the beginning, before the foundation of the world:

ISA 46:9 ...for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
ISA 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
 

Battuta

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Improved Comparison List

Improved Comparison List

1A Christ foreknown before the creation of the world:
-1 Peter 1:18-20

1B Christ known before birth
-Isaiah 49:1,5

2A Individuals foreknown before the creation of the world:

(Empty set)

2B This individual is identified for a role he will play to fulfill prophecy and God's promise c. 150 years before his birth. God in His providence, possibly even using deterministic influence, will work through a man who does not acknowledge God.

-Cyrus in Isaiah 44:28-45:6

2C Individuals known before conception, or from birth, and chosen for service:

-Samson in Judges 13:5
-Jeremiah in Jer. 1:5
-John the Baptist in Luke 1:13-17
-Paul in Gal. 1:15

3C Individuals, and by extension their descendents, known before conception, or from birth, and chosen for service.

-Jacob and Esau in Genesis 25:23; Romans 9:10-13

4A Believers in general known before the creation of the world:

-Ephesians 1:4,5,10,11,13 Paul says we were chosen in Christ before the creation of the world, but also says you were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked ....

4AA Believers in general foreknown

-Romans 8:29-30 Events here are spread out over time. We haven't been glorified yet.

4AAA Believers in general. Preparations for their glory have been progressing since the beginning.

-Romans 9:23

4AD Believers in general known from "the beginning"

-2 Thess 2:13,14 Here we can accept "the beginning" to be before the creation of the world, though it is not specified. But we note the individuals were called through "our gospel" and Paul's participation in the gospel, so he could call it ours, is very recent at the time of writing.

4E A subset of believers in general known from the "beginning", who at a particular time prove the efficacy of God's original plan by entering, with eternal results, into His redemption.

-Acts 13:48

5D Non-believers in general. God's great patience with them gives them time to accept Him, but they still choose to reject Him and face His wrath. They will be destroyed for all eternity.

-Romans 9:22
 

ChristisKing

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1A Christ foreknown before the creation of the world:
-1 Peter 1:18-20

1B Christ known before birth
-Isaiah 49:1,5

2A Individuals foreknown before the creation of the world:

I still think you are missing 3 very important verses of individuals predestined to salvation before the creation of the world.

ROM 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

ROM 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
ROM 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
 

Battuta

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Originally Posted by godrulz

It is also not necessary to assume that God predestines from eternity past.
As an open theist, I understand God makes decisions in time. But the Bible uses the word predestination to describe a few specific decisions of God which He made before the beginning of time, before the foundation of the earth.

2 Timothy 1:9, 10 ... God, who has saved us and called us to a holy life -- not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, but it has now been revealed throught the appearing of our Savior, Jesus Christ....

I agree predestination was corporate, before the beginning of time, when referring to believers (and possibly by extension non-believers).

I think your view would be more accurate, and persuasive, if you would agree to the second sentence of my first paragraph above.
 

Battuta

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ChristisKing,

This is where the estimating and the inductive thinking kick in.

Your verses can be found in my list. You would make the list differently. I can't be accused of ignoring your verses. I see no evidence against corporate predestination in the Romans verses.

Regarding predestination, as in what God decided before the foundation of the world:
You see predestination as individual and certain.
I see predestination as corporate and certain.
godrulz saw predestination as corporate and contingent.
I don't think anyone sees it as individual and contingent.
 

godrulz

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Battuta said:
As an open theist, I understand God makes decisions in time. But the Bible uses the word predestination to describe a few specific decisions of God which He made before the beginning of time, before the foundation of the earth.

2 Timothy 1:9, 10 ... God, who has saved us and called us to a holy life -- not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, but it has now been revealed throught the appearing of our Savior, Jesus Christ....

I agree predestination was corporate, before the beginning of time, when referring to believers (and possibly by extension non-believers).

I think your view would be more accurate, and persuasive, if you would agree to the second sentence of my first paragraph above.


Before the earth was created or the earthly measure of time could mean thousands of years ago, not trillions of years ago (if you are a young universe creationist). Some things were predestined in God's mind eternal ages ago, Other things could have been in space-time earth history. The use of the phrase (before foundation earth) could also be an idiom for long ago, but not necessarily trillions of years ago (forever and ever ago). The same result is that before God created (regardless of when), He had determined some, but not all things.

"God's Strategy in Human History" - Forster

This book looks at word studies and contexts of predestination. It caught F.F. Bruce's attention, though it disagreed with his Calvinistic ideas. There is more depth to this concept than we are looking at.
 

brockerst

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I just don't get that if God knew this world be a mess. If he knew there'd be so much hurt and sin. If he knew that person A was going to an eternal damnation in HELL. Why did he make the world? Why did he make person A? Why didn't he, as he was knitting person A, in A's mothers womb, didn't he make the adjustments to send A on a path to HEAVEN? Did he know he was making a HELL-bound person as he was knitting him?
 

godrulz

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brockerst said:
I just don't get that if God knew this world be a mess. If he knew there'd be so much hurt and sin. If he knew that person A was going to an eternal damnation in HELL. Why did he make the world? Why did he make person A? Why didn't he, as he was knitting person A, in A's mothers womb, didn't he make the adjustments to send A on a path to HEAVEN? Did he know he was making a HELL-bound person as he was knitting him?

Good questions that illustrate why determinism and Calvinism are incoherent and inconsistent with the wisdom and character of God.

Exhaustive foreknowledge of the future is incompatible with genuine freedom.

TULIP, including unconditional election/non-election, is problematic and unbiblical.

God did not make anyone to be hell-bound. This is a consequence of individual rebellion. Love relationship/salvation is not coerced. We can change our destiny based on His finished work on our behalf. The power of choice is a double-edged sword. God thought the risk of creating free moral agents was wiser than creating robots or not creating at all.
 

Battuta

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godrulz,

I apparently have a shorter list of biblical uses of the word "predestination" than you do. Could you give me your list of verses which include the word predestination, predestinate, predestinated, etc.
 

godrulz

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Battuta said:
godrulz,

I apparently have a shorter list of biblical uses of the word "predestination" than you do. Could you give me your list of verses which include the word predestination, predestinate, predestinated, etc.


I do not have a list. Try a concordance. I do not think the word is used very often. I was referring to Greek word studies and the historical views on predestination (e.g. Whitefield vs Wesley controversies).

Sometimes the concept is there, even if the word is not used (e.g. Isaiah 46).
 

ChristisKing

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brockerst said:
I just don't get that if God knew this world be a mess. If he knew there'd be so much hurt and sin. If he knew that person A was going to an eternal damnation in HELL. Why did he make the world? Why did he make person A? Why didn't he, as he was knitting person A, in A's mothers womb, didn't he make the adjustments to send A on a path to HEAVEN? Did he know he was making a HELL-bound person as he was knitting him?

The Holy Spirit anticipated that you would ask that question, and here is His answer:

ROM 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
ROM 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

ROM 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
ROM 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
ROM 9:22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
ROM 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
 

Battuta

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Unlike some prophecies, all predestinated items are certain.

Unlike some prophecies, all predestinated items are certain.

Originally Posted by godrulz

Sometimes the concept is there, even if the word is not used (e.g. Isaiah 46).
Isn't Isaiah 46:10-13 referring to certainties? I see no contingencies here. God does the works described here by his providential power and omniscience. I speak of omniscience, not "super-omniscience" as imagined in Calvanism or Arminianism.

All prophecies labeled with predestination are certainties. Some other prophecies are contingent upon the response of men. The word "predestination" is not used in connection with any prophecy which could be called contingent.

One difficulty with Open Theism is we can be challenged to describe how God could make any particular prophecy at a given time and later cause it to be fulfilled. Other views always have a simple answer, "God knew it ahead of time" or "God determined it would happen." Having to give complex answers for each type of prophecy could get laborious. Those who disagree with us might stop paying attention after a short time because of this complexity.

We might be tempted to take a shortcut and say a predestined prophecy is contingent, even when it is not. I feel this weakens our argument.
 

Battuta

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Let's keep these Romans verses in context.

Let's keep these Romans verses in context.

Romans 9:19-23, if interpreted in context with the preceding verses about Pharaoh and Esau, looks rather different than if it is taken on its own.

Pharaoh is an individual about whom God claims, "I hardened his heart." He also says, "but Esau I hated."

Can we hear ChristisKing's explanation of what is happening here with Esau and/or Pharoah?
 

godrulz

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ChristisKing said:
The Holy Spirit anticipated that you would ask that question, and here is His answer:

ROM 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
ROM 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

ROM 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
ROM 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
ROM 9:22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
ROM 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Perhaps you need the illumination of the Spirit. Rom. 9-11 is about the corporate election of national Israel. It is not proof texts for the so-called election and non-election of individuals in Calvinism (TULIP). It is about ministry purposes, not whether someone goes to heaven or hell by decree.
 

godrulz

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Battuta said:
Isn't Isaiah 46:10-13 referring to certainties? I see no contingencies here. God does the works described here by his providential power and omniscience. I speak of omniscience, not "super-omniscience" as imagined in Calvanism or Arminianism.

All prophecies labeled with predestination are certainties. Some other prophecies are contingent upon the response of men. The word "predestination" is not used in connection with any prophecy which could be called contingent.

One difficulty with Open Theism is we can be challenged to describe how God could make any particular prophecy at a given time and later cause it to be fulfilled. Other views always have a simple answer, "God knew it ahead of time" or "God determined it would happen." Having to give complex answers for each type of prophecy could get laborious. Those who disagree with us might stop paying attention after a short time because of this complexity.

We might be tempted to take a shortcut and say a predestined prophecy is contingent, even when it is not. I feel this weakens our argument.


Some prophecies are predictive, others are proclamations, and many are conditional.

God purposes to bring certain things to pass by His ability/power. Is. 46 does not imply foreknowledge as a mechanism. God is omnicompetent. Open Theists recognize God can bring some things to pass and predict them due to His ability (e.g. First Coming of Christ and Second Coming). Calvinists wrongly assume He predestines and decrees everything, not just some things. Arminians wrongly think simple foreknowledge explains how God can know an open, unknowable future.

Some of the future is settled due to God's ability to bring things to pass.
Some of the future is unsettled, open, and unknowable, due to other free moral agents and contingencies.

Conditional prophecies are declarations by God and contingent on whether man responds to or rejects God's call and conviction.
 

godrulz

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Battuta said:
Romans 9:19-23, if interpreted in context with the preceding verses about Pharaoh and Esau, looks rather different than if it is taken on its own.

Pharaoh is an individual about whom God claims, "I hardened his heart." He also says, "but Esau I hated."

Can we hear ChristisKing's explanation of what is happening here with Esau and/or Pharoah?

These verses are simply not about individual election to salvation or damnation. This is contrary to more explicit verses about God's character and ways. Love, truth, and justice are impartial, not arbitrary.
 

ChristisKing

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Battuta said:
Romans 9:19-23, if interpreted in context with the preceding verses about Pharaoh and Esau, looks rather different than if it is taken on its own.

Pharaoh is an individual about whom God claims, "I hardened his heart." He also says, "but Esau I hated."

Can we hear ChristisKing's explanation of what is happening here with Esau and/or Pharoah?

Who cares what I think, lets hear from the Holy Spirit Himself:

ROM 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.
ROM 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
ROM 9:22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
ROM 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
 

godrulz

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ChristisKing said:
Who cares what I think, lets hear from the Holy Spirit Himself:

ROM 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.
ROM 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
ROM 9:22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
ROM 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Context is king (Christ is KING). Quoting a verse does not interpret it in context. The immediate and remote context does not support individual election. This is Calvinistic eisegesis and a deterministic interpretation. God's sovereign choice of Israel did not guarantee that every Israelite would be faithful to YHWH. God's purposes can be thwarted at times (Lk. 7:30; 13:34; Acts 7:51, etc.). God dealing with His people and an ungodly Pharaoh has global implications. This does not mean that individual kings or Jews were predestined from eternity to turn or burn in salvation issues. Jacob and Esau also represented nations with purposes, not individual heaven-hell salvation. Hyper-sovereignty is a deterministic filter that distorts Scripture.
 
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