The Judging Contest Winner is...

I think ilyatur actually got my point, the first time. I am glad Justin won. And he did an excellent job. But the fact that Chileice put so much work into his presentation, all the while being so completely wrong, and mixing current civil law with Biblical law, is sad. But I also expected no less from Chileice. And I do wish more people had tried.

I'm a little late on this, but congratulations Justin (Wiccan). Your entry was great!

Lighthouse said:

I think ilyatur actually got my point, the first time.

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Your head almost poked my eye out.

JOKE, I'm joking. We've gotta have some fun around here.

Congrats Justin,

I am travelling and have almost zero access to internet. Will write more in about a week. Thanks for adding your contribution . Hope to explain my points abit more later. Chau for now.

Congrats, Justin!

Justin (Wiccan) said:

Chileice did a tremendous job, and I commend him for it. The big problem is that in terms of the contest, he combined modern law with Biblical Law. This actually resulted in going "over and above" Biblical standards--for at no time does the Bible ever list imprisonment as punishment for crimes.

Justin

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This is long overdue but I just wanted to clear up a couple of thoughts. First, prison was not a Roman invention. Even in ancient Egypt prison was used as a form of punishment... remember Joseph? There are also examples in Israel of imprisonment or banishment. The cities of refuge provide a clear example from Mosaic time:

Numbers 35.22-28
22 " 'But if without hostility someone suddenly shoves another or throws something at him unintentionally 23 or, without seeing him, drops a stone on him that could kill him, and he dies, then since he was not his enemy and he did not intend to harm him, 24 the assembly must judge between him and the avenger of blood according to these regulations. 25 The assembly must protect the one accused of murder from the avenger of blood and send him back to the city of refuge to which he fled. He must stay there until the death of the high priest, who was anointed with the holy oil.
26 " 'But if the accused ever goes outside the limits of the city of refuge to which he has fled 27 and the avenger of blood finds him outside the city, the avenger of blood may kill the accused without being guilty of murder. 28 The accused must stay in his city of refuge until the death of the high priest; only after the death of the high priest may he return to his own property.
Just a brief passage among several that show prisons were used by Hebrew leaders in the times of the Kings:

I Kings 22.26-28
26So the king of Israel said, "Take Micaiah, and return him to Amon the governor of the city and to Joash the king's son; 27and say, "Thus says the king: "Put this fellow in prison, and feed him with bread of affliction and water of affliction, until I come in peace.""'
28But Micaiah said, "If you ever return in peace, the LORD has not spoken by me." And he said, "Take heed, all you people!"

Jeremiah 37 provides an interesting look at how Jeremiah was unjustly imprisoned. Here is a brief excerpt:

16 Jeremiah was put into a vaulted cell in a dungeon, where he remained a long time. 17 Then King Zedekiah sent for him and had him brought to the palace, where he asked him privately, "Is there any word from the LORD ?"
"Yes," Jeremiah replied, "you will be handed over to the king of Babylon."

18 Then Jeremiah said to King Zedekiah, "What crime have I committed against you or your officials or this people, that you have put me in prison?

Jeremiah's comments seem to indicate that prison was for criminals.

In no way do I want to take away from Justin's victory. He deserved it. He was short and concise and if limited to the Torah, 100% correct. However, I believe the establishment of the kingdom changed the biblical justice system and made it a political rather than a religious institution. If anyone actually took the time to read my overly long work, you can see where I argue that. Therefore, I do believe that imprisonment does follow the biblical model as we have it in its entirety.

Hope this clears up a bit of my thinking.

Good job , Justin. Sorry not more people took the challenge. I think I took it a little too seriously!! :ha: :bang:

At least it made me think and I enjoyed the exercise.

Lighthouse said:

Pitifully, the one who put the most work into their entry failed, miserably.

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I'm sorry you found it so wanting. Perhaps you should take the time to refute it point by point. It is always easier to say something stupid than to really have to think.

Mr. Coffee said:

He said "failed, miserably". Chile Ice made something thought-provoking, and Opie farted. That's about it.

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Thanks. I hoped it would promote some thought. :wave: :think:

Chileice said:

I'm sorry you found it so wanting. Perhaps you should take the time to refute it point by point. It is always easier to say something stupid than to really have to think.

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It's a bit long, really. But I disagree, mostly with the idea that God's idea of criminal justice changed from the OT to the NT. And the idea that the man of the house should be punished for shooting the man who invaded his house. It is not a criminal act to do so. Especially if the man is running towards you, as was the case in this scenario.

Chileice said:

I think I took it a little too seriously!!

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Don't you dare believe that! Chileice, you did a splendid job ... and to my mind, you actually put a lot more work into yours than I did into mine.

Heck, maybe next time we should go in together and beat everybody. :chuckle:

Chileice said:

This is long overdue but I just wanted to clear up a couple of thoughts. First, prison was not a Roman invention. Even in ancient Egypt prison was used as a form of punishment... remember Joseph? There are also examples in Israel of imprisonment or banishment. The cities of refuge provide a clear example from Mosaic time:

Numbers 35.22-28
22 " 'But if without hostility someone suddenly shoves another or throws something at him unintentionally 23 or, without seeing him, drops a stone on him that could kill him, and he dies, then since he was not his enemy and he did not intend to harm him, 24 the assembly must judge between him and the avenger of blood according to these regulations. 25 The assembly must protect the one accused of murder from the avenger of blood and send him back to the city of refuge to which he fled. He must stay there until the death of the high priest, who was anointed with the holy oil.
26 " 'But if the accused ever goes outside the limits of the city of refuge to which he has fled 27 and the avenger of blood finds him outside the city, the avenger of blood may kill the accused without being guilty of murder. 28 The accused must stay in his city of refuge until the death of the high priest; only after the death of the high priest may he return to his own property.
Just a brief passage among several that show prisons were used by Hebrew leaders in the times of the Kings:

I Kings 22.26-28
26So the king of Israel said, "Take Micaiah, and return him to Amon the governor of the city and to Joash the king's son; 27and say, "Thus says the king: "Put this fellow in prison, and feed him with bread of affliction and water of affliction, until I come in peace.""'
28But Micaiah said, "If you ever return in peace, the LORD has not spoken by me." And he said, "Take heed, all you people!"

Jeremiah 37 provides an interesting look at how Jeremiah was unjustly imprisoned. Here is a brief excerpt:

16 Jeremiah was put into a vaulted cell in a dungeon, where he remained a long time. 17 Then King Zedekiah sent for him and had him brought to the palace, where he asked him privately, "Is there any word from the LORD ?"
"Yes," Jeremiah replied, "you will be handed over to the king of Babylon."

18 Then Jeremiah said to King Zedekiah, "What crime have I committed against you or your officials or this people, that you have put me in prison?

Jeremiah's comments seem to indicate that prison was for criminals.

In no way do I want to take away from Justin's victory. He deserved it. He was short and concise and if limited to the Torah, 100% correct. However, I believe the establishment of the kingdom changed the biblical justice system and made it a political rather than a religious institution. If anyone actually took the time to read my overly long work, you can see where I argue that. Therefore, I do believe that imprisonment does follow the biblical model as we have it in its entirety.

Hope this clears up a bit of my thinking.

Good job , Justin. Sorry not more people took the challenge. I think I took it a little too seriously!! :ha: :bang:

At least it made me think and I enjoyed the exercise.

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Chileice, do you see anywhere that God directed that prison be used for punishment?

The kings of Israel did many things that were contrary to God's instructions if we look back upon their acts.

The city of refuge was not a prison. It was just that--a refuge. A place where a person who caused an accidental death--what we would call "manslaughter" today--could escape from the vengance of his victim's family. And he was protected for as long as he stayed there. But he wasn't forced to stay, as evidenced by verse 26 of Numbers 35, which refers to his leaving the city.

Crow said:

Chileice, do you see anywhere that God directed that prison be used for punishment?

The kings of Israel did many things that were contrary to God's instructions if we look back upon their acts.

The city of refuge was not a prison. It was just that--a refuge. A place where a person who caused an accidental death--what we would call "manslaughter" today--could escape from the vengance of his victim's family. And he was protected for as long as he stayed there. But he wasn't forced to stay, as evidenced by verse 26 of Numbers 35, which refers to his leaving the city.

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Here is a belated answer to the question you posed. First of all, after the appointment of Saul, God allowed the kings to make judgements regarding the operation of the state, including those made in regards to criminal justice. He may not have LIKED every judgement made, but he permitted them.

Here is an intersting example of where the priest appointed by God seconded the actions of a foreign king who operated in favour of God's chosen people. It seems that the priest endorsed the decree of the king as godly, including the use of prison as a just punishment. The entire NT uses prison as an accepted form of punishment. Perhaps you should have been more clear and said, "using a judgement based on the Torah, come to a decision regarding the guilt or innocence of the parties involved." Because once you leave the theocratic times before Saul, prison becomes an accepted form of punishment, even among God's own people. Was it God's decretive will? Perhaps not. Was it His permissive will? Definitely.
25 And you, Ezra, in accordance with the wisdom of your God, which you possess, appoint magistrates and judges to administer justice to all the people of Trans-Euphrates—all who know the laws of your God. And you are to teach any who do not know them. 26 Whoever does not obey the law of your God and the law of the king must surely be punished by death, banishment, confiscation of property, or imprisonment.

27 Praise be to the LORD, the God of our fathers, who has put it into the king's heart to bring honor to the house of the LORD in Jerusalem in this way 28 and who has extended his good favor to me before the king and his advisers and all the king's powerful officials. Because the hand of the LORD my God was on me, I took courage and gathered leading men from Israel to go up with me.