ECT Who is not saved?

Believing requires works or else it is dead believing.

In the context of what is being said in James 2 (and in many other passages) the Greek word translated both faith and believing should be translated believing in the following passage

James 2

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Back to relative terms and explanations......

Back to relative terms and explanations......

oatmeal said:

Regardless,

Those who have received the gift of eternal life can know and should know

I John 5:13

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Indeed,....I see John's more mystical writings as being gnostic in nature, for eternal life is received thru a 'gnosis' based in the 'believing' in the revelation of the Son of God, and receiving this life thru faith in the Son. His emphasis is the life giving Spirit in its figurative, allegorical terms, as is most of the bible, especially Paul's gospel being mostly 'allegorical'. (He got his gospel and ministry-calling thru personal revelation (visions/voices) and allegorical interpretation of scripture, to which he boasted no man gave him).

Being 'saved' is but a concept, while 'salvation' is a process, via 'sanctification' or other ways.

Anything shared is subject to its own terms and meaning, and it depends on who you ask

Beyond some absolute reality, all is relative, conditional and subject to change, modification and adaptation. A student of truth is also always open to further learning and progressive revelation.

Continuing terms......

Continuing terms......

Nihilo said:

Luke 24:39 KJV (and Luke 24:42-43 KJV) tells us that 1st Corinthians' spiritual body, is not another name for a spirit.

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The above examples do not discount my reference or belief about Jesus being raised as a spirit, which of course would be a conscious personality in its spirit-body, since this entity could have materialized itself to be visible to men, engaging in physical activities, beyond any fictionalized narrative.

Also note only Luke gives the account of Jesus eating fish and honeycomb after his resurrection (mentioning in Acts as well), as well as the "handle me and see, a spirit has not flesh and blood as you see I have" comment. It seems a special emphasis with this particular author to prove a corporeal resurrection.

I expounding from a more spiritualist view of the resurrection does not discount the authenticity or power of Jesus teaching or ministry in any way whatsover, although an orthodox believer may question that on certain counts.

Furthermore Paul's discourse on the resurrection body is not necessarily about Jesus body in particular, but all resurrected bodies universally, which still allows Jesus post-resurrection appearances and its features to be exceptional. Much is speculative on our part since we cannot prove a physical or spiritual resurrection of Jesus, except examine each view on its own merits, probability, evidence, etc.

Nobody misunderstands what Romans 10:9 KJV says except you, Freelight.

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My former commentary holds and its important observation that Paul is using an OT passage to support his own doctrine, when the original passage works against his very thesis, since YHWH thru Moses makes it very clear that the commandments given are not far off in the highest heavens or in the lowest pit, but in their mouth and in their heart, so they can intimately interact with and obey God's word. That this discredits Paul's "faith alone" gospel, goes without saying....since hes rejecting Moses words and replacing it with his own. This obsevation doesn't discount progressive revelation or any possible benefit of 'replacement theology', it just shows Paul's innovation for allegory to support his own gospel.

As liberal and eclectic as I am, im not dissing Paul as we are in a similar school of 'creativity' (syncretizing, gnosticism, mystery school metaphors, mysticism), just observing that his terms of salvation are unique to his own teaching.

One of the peculiar things here is given the different sects within both Judaism and Christianity and their own evolutional developments...there may be at heart a fundamental concept of 'salvation'(in universals), but its terms and explanations vary per sect or school (in particulars).

turbosixx said:

I agree but what does it mean to believe? If we do not live according to the gospel, do we really believe?
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

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That isn't the test, though, is it? Lots of unsaved people live a life of righteousness in this present world. True saving faith is absolute TRUST in God, and His ability to keep us and conform us into the image of the Son. God works from the inside out....a change of heart. That is obedience to the Gospel....the obedience of Faith.

I would suggest to you the word is disobey and not like the first part of the verse. Here are the Greek words used in the verse.
Disobey apeitheó
Believe pisteuOn

The same Greek word for disobey is used in this verse.
Romans 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

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Same answer.

He is the end of the law because he fulfilled it and nailed it to the cross. Jesus followed the law and told others to as well because that is the law of God they lived under until the cross. It is my understanding that his commandments are not the same commandments of the law. I don't know of anywhere Jesus or his apostles taught the law .

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That's all Jesus taught while here in the flesh....the law. Maybe I'm not understanding what you're saying here.

oatmeal said:

The hope of eternal life is not stating:

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Marhig is right; here it is:

Titus 3New International Version (NIV)

Saved in Order to Do Good

3 Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good, 2 to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and always to be gentle toward everyone.

3 At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace,

we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.

It is so clear. why everyone fighting against it?

marhig said:

Receiving the gift of eternal life is receiving the Holy Spirit, he is eternal life. And we have to endure to the end to be eternally saved as Christ Jesus taught.

Paul teaches that we will be judged on what we do good and bad. If we are already eternally saved, why will we be judged on what we do? And why does Jesus say in Revelation that we will be judged on our works? If there is no judgement?

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Your obviously faulty study approach continues to leave you at the mercy of a reasoning of your own ideas into passages, and that from within your own vacuum.

The purpose of that judging in that day is not only for Believers alone, but is the issue of rewards for service rendered as a Believer.

Service rendered that is greatly impacted as to "of what sort it is" by whether or not one's understanding of one's service as a Believer had itself been sound, to begin with.

Which is the issue of soundness in study approach.

Which is the issue of sound, conscious study principles both consistently examined and applied...

Case in point...

Luke 24:19 And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people: 24:20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him. 24:21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.

24:24 And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not. 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

24:31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight. 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

He in essence "rightly divided" their Timeline mis-fire, so that their understanding of what went where, and in what order, matched that of the Scriptures.

FIRST this - "Ought not Christ to have suffered these things," - and THEN this - "and to enter into his glory?"

And yet, in between that EVEN NOW, this..

1 Peter 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

In other words, His return to redeem His intent for, in, and through the Believing Remnant of that nation one day...

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

When?

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

And these are Timeline issues that video I posted to you goes over.

But you did refuse even practicing the following Three-Fold Principle when I suggested you consider at least hearing the study in that video out.

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. 17:12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

You might end not end up agreeing with every point in that study, but you might also pick up a study principle here and that might help you further refine your present approach - how exactly is that a bad thing?

How is the following example of just that kind of thing, a bad thing?

Acts 18:24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. 18:25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. 18:26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

Rom. 5:6-8.

glorydaz said:

That isn't the test, though, is it? Lots of unsaved people live a life of righteousness in this present world. True saving faith is absolute TRUST in God, and His ability to keep us and conform us into the image of the Son. God works from the inside out....a change of heart. That is obedience to the Gospel....the obedience of Faith.

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I agree with your comments to some extent. Yes, there are a lot of people who do righteous things and since they have not submitted to Christ they are not saved. We are not saved by our works either but only through Jesus.

The bible tells us how we can know we are in him and gives the test.
3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.
If we keep his commandments we are doing his work, not our own works of righteousness. We are followers of Jesus.

glorydaz said:

That's all Jesus taught while here in the flesh....the law. Maybe I'm not understanding what you're saying here.

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Jesus taught his law. For example:
Matt. 5:27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
He starts by quoting the law, then he say "but I say to you". He then takes the law to a level that no man can accuse someone of breaking the law. He takes it to the heart.

I'm not aware of anywhere Jesus teaching the law, maybe you could point me to a passage.

Danoh said:

No. Along with those passages you posted what you have read into them.

Especially that last section of passages.

You mixed Ephesians 2's "Time Past," with its "But Now."

Here, a simpler, shorter, much more to the point video study on this issue of Ephesians 2 as a Bible Study Guideline...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlBRmPEMcWI&app=desktop

In memory of Rom. 5:6-8 - in each our stead.

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I am definitely not mixing "time past" which is the old law with "but now" which is the new law.

I watched that long video the day I said I would. I disagree with the mans conclusions so I see no need to adopt his methods. This is a prime example. All the verses I posted, with the exception of Jn. 3, are written to Christians who are in the "but now".

meshak said:

Marhig is right; here it is:

Titus 3New International Version (NIV)

Saved in Order to Do Good

3 Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good, 2 to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and always to be gentle toward everyone.

3 At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace,

we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.



It is so clear. why everyone fighting against it?

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bump

And you guys believe Christians are not going to be judged. You are wrong.

here is what Peter says:

1 Peter 4:17-19 (New International Version)
17For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18And,
"If it is hard for the righteous to be saved,
what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?"

I just edited my post#49.

turbosixx said:

I agree with your comments to some extent. Yes, there are a lot of people who do righteous things and since they have not submitted to Christ they are not saved. We are not saved by our works either but only through Jesus.

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The Gospel of Grace is about man being justified by Faith...not by works, as you rightly say, and not by any works of commandment keeping, as you seem to suggest below.

The bible tells us how we can know we are in him and gives the test.
3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

If we keep his commandments we are doing his work, not our own works of righteousness. We are followers of Jesus.

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No, our "keeping His commandments" are the works of righteousness Paul talks about here. It's why Paul tells us that Christ is the end of the law for righteousness for those who believe. Romans 10:4 The righteousness of faith is not commandment keeping of any sort. It's trusting totally in Christ's work on the Cross for all who believe.

Jesus taught his law. For example:
Matt. 5:27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
He starts by quoting the law, then he say "but I say to you". He then takes the law to a level that no man can accuse someone of breaking the law. He takes it to the heart.

I'm not aware of anywhere Jesus teaching the law, maybe you could point me to a passage.

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The law was always intended to include the thoughts of the heart. So when Jesus came, He magnified the Law and made it holy again...as it was intended. However, it was never intended to make men righteous. It's purpose is something else altogether.

So giving yourselves self assurance is wrong.

What do you say, turbo?

turbosixx said:

I agree with your comments to some extent. Yes, there are a lot of people who do righteous things and since they have not submitted to Christ they are not saved. We are not saved by our works either but only through Jesus.

The bible tells us how we can know we are in him and gives the test.
3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.
If we keep his commandments we are doing his work, not our own works of righteousness. We are followers of Jesus.





Jesus taught his law. For example:
Matt. 5:27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
He starts by quoting the law, then he say "but I say to you". He then takes the law to a level that no man can accuse someone of breaking the law. He takes it to the heart.

I'm not aware of anywhere Jesus teaching the law, maybe you could point me to a passage.

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Nope. Those passages fit within Ephesians 2's Time Past.

The issue as to Christ in Matthew thru Early Acts is the issue concerning He Who Israel's Prophets had Prophesied would come unto them to deliver them.

Those sections all concern the issue of the necessity for that nation to believe He was that Prophesied Individual.

John is no exception to that. John starts with that, and ends with that. And John is writing to THEM.

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Who were those of His Own who DID receive Him?

1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

We then read this about HIM.

John 1:25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?

That nation was to have expected Him.

John is one more account of Who He had been and His nation's great failure in that many of "His own received him not."

Again - who were those of His Own who DID receive Him?

1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. 1:30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me. 1:31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. 1:34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

Who ELSE of those of His Own who DID receive Him?

1:40 One of the two which heard John speak, and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. 1:41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ. 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.

Who else? And what again did they believe ABOUT Him?

1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!

1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

There it is right there.

Result?

1:50 Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these. 1:51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

By the way, that last passage (Jacob's Ladder, basically) is part of a "one day" redeemed ISRAEL's "Ages To Come."

You might want to review what ever notes you took :chuckle:

I mean, if we can't laugh here and there; what's the point?

Anyway, here is a simpler, more to the point version of that video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlBRmPEMcWI&app=desktop

Rom. 5:6-8.

meshak said:

So giving yourselves self assurance is wrong.

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Yep, don't give yourself self-assurance. It's worthless.



Believers, however, have full assurance of salvation from the Gospel, itself.

meshak said:

What do you say turbo?

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Hopefully he'll say you need to put your faith in what Romans 5 asserts.

Rom. 5:6-8.

Danoh said:

Hopefully he'll say you need to put your faith in what Romans 5 asserts.

Rom. 5:6-8.

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So you dismiss Peter's word?

turbosixx said:

If we keep his commandments we are doing his work, not our own works of righteousness. We are followers of Jesus.

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Insightful comment. thanks.

meshak said:

So giving yourselves self assurance is wrong.

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More like FINISHED work of the Cross assurance.

More like...

2 Corinthians 3:4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

All you need to do is come to Romans 5:6-11.

And right this minute would be no time too soon.