Abortion, the Pro-Life Stance, and God's Law. Abortion is Never Okay.

Jacob

BANNED
Banned
Abortion, the Pro-Life Stance, and God's Law. Abortion is Never Okay.

Shalom.

I am writing from Tacoma, Washington, in the United States of America. It is Shishi (Sixth; the sixth day of the week) evening and morning night and day following sunset or as the sun has set, the first month the month of Aviv, Aviv 7.

Abortion is Never Okay.

Is abortion ever okay? No. Abortion is never okay.

According to God's Law there is punishment for sin. This either comes by the hand of God without human agency or in accordance with the action taken in regard to a judgment made by a court or a judge. I am not familiar with what witnesses to sin need to do according to Torah law, if they would act without a court or a judge. I believe that we would need some teaching about that. For example, would a family member kill a murderer and when and where would this be allowed or not allowed?

What is the punishment for sin? What is the penalty for sin? Sin is transgression of the Law.

With the New Covenant God's law is written on minds and hearts. The New Covenant is for the House of Israel and the House of Judah. It came in Yeshua HaMashiach, Jesus the Christ.

Is there any punishment for sin now?

With a change of the priesthood from the Levitical Priesthood to the Priesthood of Jesus Christ where He is our High Priest there has been a change of the law. But I do not know what this change of the law is. Some say that it is New Covenant Law. Some whatever Jesus repeated in the New Covenant, the New Testament, or the Gospels. Some simply that Paul preached and teached that this is the Law of Christ, which is to bear one another's burdens.

Can a Gentile be saved apart from the Law, apart from Christ, or apart from the New Covenant?

For Israel we have our Law, the Law of Moses. In it God spells out, in the Torah that is, what His, God's, Law is. It is this that we need expounded, taught, explained, to have understanding.

The result of a pregnancy should never be abortion. Abortion is murder. The unjust taking of an innocent life. To begin with, a life inside the womb.

Abortion is not okay in the case of rape or incest or even for those who are married. There is no exception. There are no exceptions. Not to whether or not the sex that resulted in a pregnancy was consensual even.

So, for the man or male and the woman or female and her unborn, in what case or cases would he and or she be put to death for the sex that they engaged in? Sex is for marriage and according to God's Law it sometimes results in marriage. God's Law explains when and how this would happen or occur. Meaning, do not have sex until you are married. If you are married you should know that sex is a procreative act intended to result in pregnancy and the birth of one or more baby boy girl or child (boy or girl, male or female).

There is a commandment in the Law. It is You shall not commit adultery. Do not commit adultery.

Shemot - Exodus - Chapter 20
In Verse 13

לֹ֖א תִּנְאָֽף

Devarim - Deuteronomy - Chapter 5
In Verse 17

וְלֹ֣א תִנְאָ֑ף

Adultery is against God's Law. The commandment against adultery and prohibiting adultery is found in the Torah, including the punishment.

Vayikra - Leviticus - Chapter 20
Verse 10

10 And a man who commits adultery with [another] man's wife, committing adultery with the wife of his fellow the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

Yeshua, Jesus, taught against adultery.

Even in a situation where the life of the pregnant woman or an unborn child appears to be at stake or in jeopardy every attempt to save a life should be made with no exceptions, both the life of the pregnant woman and her unborn child.

Shalom.

Jacob
 

Stuu

New member
Even in a situation where the life of the pregnant woman or an unborn child appears to be at stake or in jeopardy every attempt to save a life should be made with no exceptions, both the life of the pregnant woman and her unborn child.
But abortion might be necessary, right?

Stuart
 

Jacob

BANNED
Banned
Abortion (the death of an unborn child) may be unavoidable, but it is never necessary.

That a child would or could die in the womb would only be abortion if a decision to perform an abortion was made or if a decision or choice was made resulting in abortion.

Are you asking about what happens if a child dies in the womb when no abortion or abortive action was made or performed?

What is the difference to you between abortion, which is murder, and miscarriage?

If the child dies in the womb would the child then be aborted? What are your terms? What are you saying?

Shalom.

Jacob
 

genuineoriginal

New member
That a child would or could die in the womb would only be abortion if a decision to perform an abortion was made or if a decision or choice was made resulting in abortion.

Are you asking about what happens if a child dies in the womb when no abortion or abortive action was made or performed?

What is the difference to you between abortion, which is murder, and miscarriage?

If the child dies in the womb would the child then be aborted? What are your terms? What are you saying?

Shalom.

Jacob
Here is the definition of abortion:
abortion
  1. the termination of a pregnancy after, accompanied by, resulting in, or closely followed by the death of the embryo or fetus: such as
    • spontaneous expulsion of a human fetus during the first 12 weeks of gestation — compare miscarriage
    • induced expulsion of a human fetus
    • expulsion of a fetus by a domestic animal often due to infection at any time before completion of pregnancy — compare contagious abortion

"Abortion" is a word describing a pregnancy that has been abruptly stopped (aborted) without the baby surviving.

The intentional death of an unborn baby in order to stop a pregnancy is murder and is never necessary, but an unintentional death of an unborn baby that results in the pregnancy being stopped may be unavoidable.
 

Jacob

BANNED
Banned
Here is the definition of abortion:
abortion
  1. the termination of a pregnancy after, accompanied by, resulting in, or closely followed by the death of the embryo or fetus: such as
    • spontaneous expulsion of a human fetus during the first 12 weeks of gestation — compare miscarriage
    • induced expulsion of a human fetus
    • expulsion of a fetus by a domestic animal often due to infection at any time before completion of pregnancy — compare contagious abortion

"Abortion" is a word describing a pregnancy that has been abruptly stopped (aborted) without the baby surviving.

The intentional death of an unborn baby in order to stop a pregnancy is murder and is never necessary, but an unintentional death of an unborn baby that results in the pregnancy being stopped may be unavoidable.

I do not know what you mean by unintentional death or that the pregnancy being stopped may be unavoidable. What do you mean by unintentional death? That something would be viewed as unavoidable means that people have an idea of something that would be avoidable? From the terms it sounds like trying to find an excuse for abortion or an attempt to cover it up or potentially cover it (an abortion) up by saying or explaining in such a way that would be viewed as compassionate (inappropriately) or attempting to seek the best interests of the patient.

Shalom.

Jacob
 

genuineoriginal

New member
I do not know what you mean by unintentional death or that the pregnancy being stopped may be unavoidable. What do you mean by unintentional death? That something would be viewed as unavoidable means that people have an idea of something that would be avoidable? From the terms it sounds like trying to find an excuse for abortion or an attempt to cover it up or potentially cover it (an abortion) up by saying or explaining in such a way that would be viewed as compassionate (inappropriately) or attempting to seek the best interests of the patient.

Shalom.

Jacob
If a pregnant woman has cancer and undergoes radiation treatments or chemotherapy to get rid of the cancer, the baby will almost certainly be killed by the cancer treatments, even though killing the baby is not the intention of the medical procedures.

If a pregnant woman is in an accident and cannot be saved, an attempt to save the baby may fail and the baby could die as well.

The abortion should only be considered as unavoidable in cases where both the mother and the baby will die if a medical procedure was not done and the death of the baby should only be considered as unintentional if the medical procedure was intended to save the life of the mother, the baby, or both and failed to save the baby's life.

Saving the mother's lifestyle is not an excuse for intentionally ending the life of the baby, even though lawyers have redefined "life of the mother" into "lifestyle of the mother" in court.
 

Jacob

BANNED
Banned
If a pregnant woman has cancer and undergoes radiation treatments or chemotherapy to get rid of the cancer, the baby will almost certainly be killed by the cancer treatments, even though killing the baby is not the intention of the medical procedures.

If a pregnant woman is in an accident and cannot be saved, an attempt to save the baby may fail and the baby could die as well.

The abortion should only be considered as unavoidable in cases where both the mother and the baby will die if a medical procedure was not done and the death of the baby should only be considered as unintentional if the medical procedure was intended to save the life of the mother, the baby, or both and failed to save the baby's life.

Is this what you believe? Your view? You are excusing abortion, murder! Abortion is never okay. It is not okay in order to save the life of the mother even. Save a life! Both or more if necessary! Yours is to surviving pessimism. Cancer is not good. Neither is abortion.
 

Bard_the_Bowman

New member
"Abortion" is a word describing a pregnancy that has been abruptly stopped (aborted) without the baby surviving.

The intentional death of an unborn baby in order to stop a pregnancy is murder and is never necessary, but an unintentional death of an unborn baby that results in the pregnancy being stopped may be unavoidable.

Hey Jacob,

I think genuineoriginal is just broadening the term "abortion" from its more common usage today.

Today, for most people I think, "abortion" means the deliberate killing of an unborn baby.

The definition that genuineoriginal is using is broad enough to include miscarriages, or any undeliberate death of an unborn child.

I think it is pretty clear from the entire post that genuineoriginal is in complete agreement with what you have already said.

Peace.
 

Bard_the_Bowman

New member
Is this what you believe? Your view? You are excusing abortion, murder! Abortion is never okay. It is not okay in order to save the life of the mother even. Save a life! Both or more if necessary! Yours is to surviving pessimism. Cancer is not good. Neither is abortion.

Hang on Jacob.

genuineoriginal is using the term in a different sense than you are. He or she (sorry) is saying that if a treatment is needed to try to save a life or both lives and if the baby or the mother dies as an unintended consequence of that treatment, that could be unavoidable. But that is also unintentional. There is no intent to take either life...not the mother's and not the babies.

So that is not an abortion in the sense of an intentional killing of the baby.


That would be a tragic case of "we tried to save you and your baby but your baby didn't make it."

That is not an abortion in the sense that you are using the term. But it is in the sense that G.O. is using the term.

Peace to you both.
 

Jacob

BANNED
Banned
Hey Jacob,

I think genuineoriginal is just broadening the term "abortion" from its more common usage today.

Today, for most people I think, "abortion" means the deliberate killing of an unborn baby.

The definition that genuineoriginal is using is broad enough to include miscarriages, or any undeliberate death of an unborn child.

I think it is pretty clear from the entire post that genuineoriginal is in complete agreement with what you have already said.

Peace.

I don't know that to be true. I do not know this to be the case.

That a child would be aborted may include miscarriage, but miscarriage is not a word or term to be used to excuse or cover up abortion. Meaning, to abort is murder while the death of an unborn child may result in abortion or miscarriage, if the death of the unborn child is not the miscarriage itself.

Abortion is wrong and murder. Miscarriage may be the result of sin but by a definition of the term it should not (never, not ever) include or excuse abortion. Using the term miscarriage has been used to cover up abortion, while an abortion or having an abortion (would be murder) and aborted means there was an abortion, murder, and yet if a woman aborts (the word aborts) her unborn child it is murder or if it was not deliberate or intentional it would be better termed as miscarriage (where no abortion meaning murder has taken place). We cannot excuse murder, abortion. Then what if a person, a woman, aborts her dead unborn child? It sounds like covering up abortion. I am having difficulty with the word abort meaning something else or something other than murder. Abortion is the killing of an unborn child, the intentional and deliberate taking of an innocent unborn life. Maybe I am thinking of the term when used of animals where no abortion of an unborn child or an animal killing it has taken place.

Shalom.

Jacob
 

genuineoriginal

New member
Is this what you believe? Your view? You are excusing abortion, murder! Abortion is never okay. It is not okay in order to save the life of the mother even. Save a life! Both or more if necessary! Yours is to surviving pessimism. Cancer is not good. Neither is abortion.

I do not excuse the deliberate murder of an unborn baby.
I do realize that the baby may die unintentionally or accidentally.

Hey Jacob,

I think genuineoriginal is just broadening the term "abortion" from its more common usage today.

Today, for most people I think, "abortion" means the deliberate killing of an unborn baby.

The definition that genuineoriginal is using is broad enough to include miscarriages, or any undeliberate death of an unborn child.

I have been on abortion threads where pro-abortion people have refused to accept that "abortion" means the deliberate murder of an unborn baby whenever an anti-abortion person uses the term.
We should address what the term means early in a thread that is titled, "Abortion, the Pro-Life Stance, and God's Law. Abortion is Never Okay."

I think it is pretty clear from the entire post that genuineoriginal is in complete agreement with what you have already said.

Peace.

I believe I am one of the more extreme pro-life/anti-abortion people on TOL and I agree with Jacob completely when it comes to the deliberate killing of an unborn baby for the sole purpose of ending the child's life.
 

genuineoriginal

New member
Hang on Jacob.

genuineoriginal is using the term in a different sense than you are. He or she (sorry) is saying that if a treatment is needed to try to save a life or both lives and if the baby or the mother dies as an unintended consequence of that treatment, that could be unavoidable. But that is also unintentional. There is no intent to take either life...not the mother's and not the babies.

So that is not an abortion in the sense of an intentional killing of the baby.


That would be a tragic case of "we tried to save you and your baby but your baby didn't make it."

That is not an abortion in the sense that you are using the term. But it is in the sense that G.O. is using the term.

Peace to you both.

Yes, exactly.
:thumb:
 

Jacob

BANNED
Banned
Hang on Jacob.

genuineoriginal is using the term in a different sense than you are. He or she (sorry) is saying that if a treatment is needed to try to save a life or both lives and if the baby or the mother dies as an unintended consequence of that treatment, that could be unavoidable. But that is also unintentional. There is no intent to take either life...not the mother's and not the babies.

So that is not an abortion in the sense of an intentional killing of the baby.


That would be a tragic case of "we tried to save you and your baby but your baby didn't make it."

That is not an abortion in the sense that you are using the term. But it is in the sense that G.O. is using the term.

Peace to you both.

I do not know what to say. Save both lives. Because a woman would die to save the life of her unborn child. That the child did not make it would be unsettling news and difficult to deal with. I do not believe that an abortion should take place and then the woman be told that she was unconscious and her child did not make it. I do not know about the case of a C-Section. If the woman would be conscious or not. I was born by C-Section.

Shalom.

Jacob
 

Stuu

New member
Abortion is not necessary, allowed, or permitted, in any case.
Obviously it is necessary quite often, and in those cases it is both allowed and permitted. So what point were you trying to make, exactly?

Stuart
 
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