Was the fall necessary ?

Nanja

Nanja

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beloved57 said:
The Fall was necessary because God created the wicked for the day of evil Prov 16:4

4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
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Yes ! God made the wicked for Himself in Wisdom and for a suitable Purpose in Christ Jesus.

For God, before the world began, already Purposed that Jesus Christ would be slain by wicked hands Acts 2:23.

So most assuredly, God never loved such people He Created for such a purpose as that !
 
beloved57

beloved57

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Nanja said:
Yes ! God made the wicked for Himself in Wisdom and for a suitable Purpose in Christ Jesus.

For God, before the world began, already Purposed that Jesus Christ would be slain by wicked hands Acts 2:23.

So most assuredly, God never loved such people He Created for such a purpose as that !
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Prov 21:18

[FONT=&quot]The wicked shall be a [/FONT]ransom for the righteous, and the transgressor for the upright.
 
beloved57

beloved57

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It was through the Fall and men being made sinners Rom 5:12 that purposed to make known the riches of His Glory on the vessels of His Mercy Rom 9:23

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
 
Nanja

Nanja

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beloved57 said:
Prov 21:18

[FONT="]The wicked shall be a [/FONT]ransom for the righteous, and the transgressor for the upright.
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Right, or like saying God turns His Wrath on the wicked of the earth instead of it falling upon His Righteous Ones.
 
Clete

Clete

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beloved57 said:
Exactly. He purposed to demonstrate that, Their Salvation[the elect] by the destruction of the non elect
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So the ends justify the means to they?

Just exactly how is that goal accomplished by that means anyway?
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

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beloved57 said:
The Fall was necessary because God created the wicked for the day of evil Prov 16:4

4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Click to expand...

"The LORD works out everything to its proper end— even the wicked for a day of disaster" (Pro.16:2; NIV).​

God works out everything to its proper end, and one of those proper ends is that the wicked will face a day of disaster.

God certainly is not responsible for evil people because in Him there is no darkness:

"This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all" (1 Jn.1:4).​

It is blasphemy to accuse God of being responsible for the evil acts of people. God is not guilty of that and the Scriptures declare in no uncertain terms that it is people who are guilty (Ro.3:19).
 
beloved57

beloved57

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Jerry Shugart said:
"The LORD works out everything to its proper end— even the wicked for a day of disaster" (Pro.16:2; NIV).​

God works out everything to its proper end, and one of those proper ends is that the wicked will face a day of disaster.

God certainly is not responsible for evil people because in Him there is no darkness:

"This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all" (1 Jn.1:4).​

It is blasphemy to accuse God of being responsible for the evil acts of people. God is not guilty of that and the Scriptures declare in no uncertain terms that it is people who are guilty (Ro.3:19).
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The word made pa`al does denote to make men :

Its the same word in the book of Job Job 36:3

I will fetch my knowledge from afar, and will ascribe righteousness to my Maker
 
Nanja

Nanja

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beloved57 said:
It was through the Fall and men being made sinners Rom 5:12 that purposed to make known the riches of His Glory on the vessels of His Mercy Rom 9:23

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
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Yes, the Fall was necessary ! It was Purposed by God, and was His Will and first preference to have Adam sin.

For if there was no transgressor, how else could He manifest His distinguishing mercy upon His Vessels of Mercy Rom. 9:23 !
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
beloved57 said:
The word made pa`al does denote to make men :

Its the same word in the book of Job Job 36:3

I will fetch my knowledge from afar, and will ascribe righteousness to my Maker
Click to expand...

The Hebrew word pa`al also means "to undertake" (Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon).

"The LORD undertakes everything to its proper end— even the wicked for a day of disaster."

That translation is in accordance with what is said here:

"This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all" (1 Jn.1:4).​

If God is responsible for all the wickedness down through history then it couldn't be said that "in Him is no darkness at all."
 
beloved57

beloved57

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Jerry Shugart said:
The Hebrew word pa`al also means "to undertake" (Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon).

"The LORD undertakes everything to its proper end— even the wicked for a day of disaster."

That translation is in accordance with what is said here:

"This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all" (1 Jn.1:4).​

If God is responsible for all the wickedness down through history then it couldn't be said that "in Him is no darkness at all."
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As long as you know it means maker of men ! And so God made the wicked for the day of evil !
 
Nanja

Nanja

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Jerry Shugart said:
If Adam's sin was purposed by God then Adam didn't have free will and cannot be considered responsible for his sin.
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What free will ?

Dan. 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

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Nanja said:
What free will ?

Dan. 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
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Are you saying that the LORD God's "will" was the same "will" as Adam and all men?

If your answer is "yes" then tell me why the Lord Jesus spoke of His will being different that that of the Father (Mt.26:39).

Here is a better translation:

"All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: “What have you done?” (Dan.4:35; NIV).​

If God's will is responsible for all the evil which men do then it cannot be said that in God there is no darkness:

"This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all" (1 Jn.1:4).​

Your teaching portrays the LORD God as a monster of the worst kind!
 
JudgeRightly

JudgeRightly

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Nanja said:
Dan. 4:35 clearly teaches that God's Purpose and Will is Supreme and overrides all others !
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No. It doesn't.

All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; He does according to His will in the army of heaven And among the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand Or say to Him, “What have You done?” - Daniel 4:35 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel4:35&version=NKJV

It says that God:

[emoji736] does things according to His will
[emoji736] can accomplish His will even when He is opposed

It does not say that God's will:

[emoji777] is supreme
[emoji777] overrides all others

Those are things you are reading into the text that simply are not there.
 
beloved57

beloved57

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The fall was necessary in that it was a means to a Glorious end. That end being to conform the chosen ones into the image of the risen Christ. Rom 8:29

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Naturally the elect weren’t born in this Image, but in the image of the earthy or natural as per 1 Cor 15:49

And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Paul wrote to the Philippians Phil 3:20-21

20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

This comes through the redemptive death and resurrection and glorification of Christ.

Surely being conformed to the image of Christ via redemption wasn't a subordinate and inferior purpose of God as in naturally and earthy wise the elect bare the image of Adam made of the earth
 
Nanja

Nanja

Well-known member
beloved57 said:
The fall was necessary in that it was a means to a Glorious end. That end being to conform the chosen ones into the image of the risen Christ. Rom 8:29

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Naturally the elect weren’t born in this Image, but in the image of the earthy or natural as per 1 Cor 15:49

And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Paul wrote to the Philippians Phil 3:20-21

20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

This comes through the redemptive death and resurrection and glorification of Christ.

Surely being conformed to the image of Christ via redemption wasn't a subordinate and inferior purpose of God as in naturally and earthy wise the elect bare the image of Adam made of the earth
Click to expand...


The Fall was necessary because for those who were Created in God's Image [God's Elect], they would not be confirmed in it until they sinned in Adam and then become Born Again from above; for it's only then that they experientially begin to bear the Image of God, the Heavenly Man and Mediator 1 Cor. 15:49, the Lord Jesus Christ. And it's these same ones exclusively who shall experience the Transformation of their body Phil. 3:21 at the Second Coming of Christ.

Rom. 8:14-19

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
 
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