Trump sez: Transgenders B gone!
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glorydaz
Well-known member
Israel is a nation. They were punished not given over. That is the difference.
They were given over to wicked nations who ruled over them.
I'm thinking that all those crimes that are being committed (and there are a LOT) have not been restrained from doing so because there was a law & punishment for it.
The deal is that you can find instances of it seeming beneficial and also instances where it doesn't seem beneficial.
We could go back and forth with different scenarios, none of which will settle the issue into an iron clad solution.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Gen. 4:6-12 And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. 8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him. 9 And the Lord said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper? 10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. 11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand; 12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.
But here, we see Cain was warned by God, and sinned anyway...just as his parents did. Then God punished him just as He did Adam and Eve.
I didn't say that. I said the only difference was that the law was written down for the Israelites when they came out of Egypt.
How do you know that?
I had heard it before, too, and maybe Bob can make it clear to me. I was just gifted his book.
Hmmm....
Didn't seem to do much good.
Gen. 13:12 Abram dwelled in the land of Canaan, and Lot dwelled in the cities of the plain, and pitched his tent toward Sodom. 13 But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the Lord exceedingly.
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I pointed out earlier that adultery is a crime in only 17 states, yet it's, for all intents and purposes, unenforced, and infidelity rates have been going up the last 25 years.
Murder is legal (abortion), theft has been all but legalized (cops won't go after a thief if the amount stolen is below a certain level), adultery laws (where they exist) are unenforced, and when is the last time you heard or read about a perjury case?
Do you even know what the Biblical punishment for perjury is? The common law punishment is five years in prison, but what about what God says it should be?
Tam, would you agree that prison as a form of punishment is ineffective (or at the very least, not effective enough) to deter criminals?
I'm assuming here that you're advocating for God's punishment in the form of execution for crimes such as abortion, adultry...etc.
Yet, not everybody in a free society must believe in such a God and/or accept such strict standards of punishment. Hence, would you accept an officially sanctioned court/trial overseen by and exclusively for Christians which would freely be allowed to augment the punishments set forth by civil (secular) law?
glorydaz
Well-known member
Not the same. A nation does not have a conscience.
I honestly am not impressed with our legal system.
There are lots of things I don't like about it.
That they can lock you up BEFORE you have been found guilty by trial is abhorrent to me and completely destroys the notion of "innocent until proven guilty".
Just to name one of many.
And I especially don't like that law after law is being added on a regular basis from city government up to national government.
For instance, in the town I live in now has made a law concerning trash cans.
For years and years and years everyone kept their trash cans by the curb.
They made a law that said you would now be fined up to $2000 if your trash cans were found by the curb except on trash pick up days.
That stuck in my craw, as most people struggle just to pay their utilities and keep food on the table, and they want to impose needless restrictions that make anyone a criminal if they disobey.
It's racket in my opinion, designed to extort more money from it's citizens.
Geesh! Don't get me started!
I could go on for days.
So, if I read that right, you do agree that prison isn't an effective deterrent for any crime. I'm going to continue on that assumption, but feel free to correct me.
Now, I completely agree with the second portion of your post, so I don't feel the need to include it here, but this first part I want to address.
Locking up suspects before a trial is not just a good idea (if they really are guilty, they'll run the moment they are brought in for questioning if they think their crime can be traced back to them, and if they're innocent, the trial (in an ideal world) would be wrapped up within a few days instead months or years, so there wouldn't be a large interruption of their life, and they would be willing to comply anyways), it is in fact biblical.
And the Israelite woman’s son blasphemed the name of the Lord and cursed; and so they brought him to Moses. (His mother’s name was Shelomith the daughter of Dibri, of the tribe of Dan.)Then they put him in custody, that the mind of the Lord might be shown to them. - Leviticus 24:11-12 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus24:11-12&version=NKJV
They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him. - Numbers 15:34 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers15:34&version=NKJV
If the thief is not found, then the master of the house shall be brought to the judges to see whether he has put his hand into his neighbor’s goods. - Exodus 22:8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus22:8&version=NKJV
Moving on, with the above assumption in mind:
What would you suggest as an appropriate punishment for:
Murder
Kidnapping
Deadly negligence
Capital perjury
Adultery
Sodomy
Bestiality
Incest with:
-Mother
-Daughter in law
-Mother in law
-Sister
-Aunt
-Sister in law
Rape
Human Sacrifice
Manslaughter during crime
Abortion
Theft where goods are:
-Recovered
-Sold
-Destroyed
-Irreplaceable
-Sentimental
-Insignificant
-surrendered
Accidental destruction of property
Common negligence
Destroy property
Temporary injury
Litigated dispute
Assault
Permanent injury
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[MENTION=13955]glorydaz[/MENTION] btw, in addition to the Plot, I HIGHLY recommend buying Bob's "God and the Death Penalty" video, his "God's Criminal Justice System" mp3 series, and the "God's Criminal Justice System" syllabus.
These are where I'm getting most of my material.
If you'd like, I would be more than happy to purchase them for you.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Oh my goodness. You're very sweet, JR.
And you're very kind, but I don't know what mp3 or syllabus means.
I'm not sure what I'd do with them. :idunno:
But, I do know what a book is, and I'm getting Bob's book in the mail, and maybe that will help me understand what you're talking about.
Oh my goodness. You're very sweet, JR.
And you're very kind, but I don't know what mp3 or syllabus means.
I'm not sure what I'd do with them. :idunno:
But, I do know what a book is, and I'm getting Bob's book in the mail, and maybe that will help me understand what you're talking about.
MP3 = a means of compressing a sound sequence into a very small file, to enable digital storage and transmission (basically just an audio file)
Syllabus = an outline of the subjects in a course of study or teaching
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It is not an effective deterrent for any crime.
It is a deterrent for some people, but not for all.
So the best we can say is that SOMETIMES it is a deterrent.
Like almost anything we talk about, there will be some times it holds true and sometimes that it doesn't hold true, so we cannot pound the gavel and declare it it one way or the other.
One can say it is a deterrent, and that statement would be true SOMETIMES.
One can say it is not a deterrent, and that statement would be true SOMETIMES.
But neither statement is true for all times for all crimes.
Stop here and you're good. The rest was unnecessary.
Could you please respond to the rest of my post now?
Can't stop right there, as there are some times when it is a deterrent for some people.
You can't make a blanket statement either way and just stop right there because sometimes it holds true and sometimes it does not.
Sure you can.
I asked if prison is an "effective" deterrent, and you agreed that it is not.
It doesn't deter everyone, and even if it does deter them, it's not a very reliable one.
Ergo, ineffective.
Could you please respond to the rest of my above post now?
I said it can be at times, and not be at times.
Either way you say it can be true at times and not true at times.
That makes it effective at times and not effective at times.
Trying to make it just one way does not hold true.
The best you can say is that it is not effective at ALL times for ALL people, but you cannot make a blanket statement that it is not effective because sometimes it is.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
I listened to this yesterday, it reminded my of my three years teaching in the urban schools - i encountered every single one of the circumstances this teacher mentions:
the take away is this - weak rules (laws), poorly communicated, applied inconsistently and ineffectively = chaos
now compare that to this:
strict rules, constantly and repetitively drilled into the "students" (who are expected to know them by heart, to be able to recite them accurately when woken in the middle of the night), applied strictly, swiftly and consistently
one more point to make clear, in order to bring it into this discussion - in the two environments I compare - military basic training and urban high schools - the analogy to the death penalty is expulsion
in the ordered environment of the military, expulsion is a very real threat which can and will be applied, swiftly and consistently - and it's known in the ranks - every recruit has it drilled into him that any failure to obey the rules can lead to expulsion - and so it acts as an effective deterrent to disobedient behavior
in the chaotic environment of the urban public school, expulsion is rarely used and it's known that the administration will do almost anything to avoid it - and so it does not act as a deterrent
the take away is this - weak rules (laws), poorly communicated, applied inconsistently and ineffectively = chaos
now compare that to this:
strict rules, constantly and repetitively drilled into the "students" (who are expected to know them by heart, to be able to recite them accurately when woken in the middle of the night), applied strictly, swiftly and consistently
one more point to make clear, in order to bring it into this discussion - in the two environments I compare - military basic training and urban high schools - the analogy to the death penalty is expulsion
in the ordered environment of the military, expulsion is a very real threat which can and will be applied, swiftly and consistently - and it's known in the ranks - every recruit has it drilled into him that any failure to obey the rules can lead to expulsion - and so it acts as an effective deterrent to disobedient behavior
in the chaotic environment of the urban public school, expulsion is rarely used and it's known that the administration will do almost anything to avoid it - and so it does not act as a deterrent
