Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I believe that the Scriptures reveal that a person sins when he goes from being God-centered to being self-centered. And in the eternal state all people will be God-centered.
ECT God Made Mankind Upright and That Contradicts the Theory of Original Sin
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
- Start date
I believe that the Scriptures reveal that a person sins when he goes from being God-centered to being self-centered. And in the eternal state all people will be God-centered.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
Will all people choose to be "God-centered"? You haven't said why people will be eternally "God-centred" in the afterlife when they weren't necessarily so in this life.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
So what are you saying?
That even when Christians put on new bodies and are in heaven they will have no free will?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
You deny that the LORD made mankind upright even though the Scriptures say that He did.
beloved57
Well-known member
False accusation. Since thats how you want to debate or discuss, I will pass
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
You come on this thread and just ignore the subject of this thread--that the LORD makes mankind upright.
All you do is just ignore that fact and go about trying to prove that He doesn't make mankind upright.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
I'm not saying anything. I'm trying to understand what is going on in your understanding of man's sinfulness. There is - according to the way I read what you say - a change in whether or not there will be sin once someone is in the New Heavens and New Earth. Whence that change? I'm just wanting to know if you believe that or if you believe that there will be sin in the New Heavens and New Earth. If there was no change in man's free will, can he not freely choose sin in the New Heavens and New Earth?
That would be you, baldie. People stalk me, because of my fame, clout, on TOL, in contrast to you.
Jerry's cute little "Why don't you believe Paul, .....?"-his MO on TOL-sophistry, kid stuff.
You missed it. You taught me trap/humanisim type questions, baldie. You learned that from the Pharisees, who tried it on the Saviour. It did not work with Him-it does not work with me.
The scripture says that all are born with a sin nature.
Why will not you believe God the Father, the Lord Jesus Christ, Paul, in Genesis-Revelation?
See how that works, Pate, Jr.?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The LORD makes all people and according to your theory all people are born with a sin nature. Therefore, the LORD must be responsible for all the wickedness upon the face of the earth since the beginning of time.
And you actually believe that theory!
Come on, sonny boy. I taught you better than that.
Already did, baldie, on another thread, but, as is your MO, as so many on TOL have pointed out, you punted the dozens of verses refuting your made up theory.
Address those first, baldie.
Is that why you were banned from a few other forums, like christianforums.com, i.e., lying, hypocrisy, misquoting others, accusing others of not addressing the scriptures, hypocrisy, sophistry?
Did you teach your children to sin? Who did?
No, Jer., that is your satanic humanism-your MO on TOL.Already addressed:
1.Adam was born upright-free will....he chose to disobey-we would have done the same thing-the dispensational approach.....Man is tried in dispensations, fails....The big picture. But that meat you cannot bear, kid. Stick with the milk.
Jer: You're not fair, God!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
2. An atheist to Jer. Pate, Jr.:The LORD makes all people and according to your theory all people, if they do not choose God, they will be consigned to an eternal torment. Therefore, the LORD must be responsible for all this wickedness, of sending people to hell. Your "god" is a sadist.Why did your "god" make people, if he knew man would fall, endure wickedness on earth, and most go to hell-He is responsible for this!!!!!!!!!!!
Jer: Uh, urr,....
Jer: The humanist.
You actually believe this "God is unfair, a sadist, responsible for man's fall, we have to teach children to sin....." theory?
Come on, baldie...Tell us who taught your children to sin. Go ahead.
You taught me? Good one. I had to teach you that both Adam and Eve(pre-fall) had "flesh and bones," as the Saviour does now. You've not even read Genesis, have you, Pate, Jr.? ,
If one will inherit eternal life, keep the commandments, but we should understand that keeping the law does not save us.
We are saved by grace through faith. Sin is counter to faith.
If a person sins it is not because of Godly faith.
Jesus didn't sin and we are expected to become like him.
That's only reasonable.
Jer Pate, Jr. Tell us the reason for the Lord Jesus Christ being born of the Holy Spirit, instead of having the sperm of a man impregnating Mary. Unpack it for us. And tell us the difference between Him having no "original sin," from the womb, and a baby from the womb, having no "original sin."
And, again, as I've asked you numerous times, tell us who taught your children to sin, and why you assert that an apple tree becomes an apple tree, only after it produces apples.
And, again, as I've asked you numerous times, tell us who taught your children to sin, and why you assert that an apple tree becomes an apple tree, only after it produces apples.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
In order to obtain eternal life by keeping God's commandments a person has to keep it perfectly. So no one obtains it that way.
However, a person has the ability to keep it perfectly but not the will.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
According to the theory of Original Sin all people emerge from the womb "utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil."
And then, according to the theory, He will condemn people for doing the very thing He designed them to do:
"...the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds...unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil" (Ro.2:5-6,8-9).
The God I worship would never do that because in Him there is no darkness at all (1 Jn.1:5).
nikolai_42
Well-known member
I'm still hoping you can answer my last post, but another thought occurs - do you have to teach a child to lust, covet, hate etc... or can they come up with that all by themselves? And if the answer is that they are able to come up with that all by themselves (and Paul even teaches that the Law brings sin - not our parents; see Romans 7:8-14, primarily), then how does bad fruit come from a good tree? Sin is either resident or "the devil made me do it". Did God make man's deceitful heart? The question isn't "How did you make your heart so deceitful?" but rather "Who can know it?"
No, you argued that the LORD must be responsible for all this wickedness, of sending people to hell.
No, Jer., that is your satanic humanism-your MO on TOL.Already addressed:
1.Adam was born upright-free will....he chose to disobey-we would have done the same thing-the dispensational approach.....Man is tried in dispensations, fails....The big picture. But that meat you cannot bear, kid. Stick with the milk.
Jer: You're not fair, God!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
2. An atheist to Jer. Pate, Jr.:The LORD makes all people and according to your theory all people, if they do not choose God, they will be consigned to an eternal torment. Therefore, the LORD must be responsible for all this wickedness, of sending people to hell. Your "god" is a sadist.Why did your "god" make people, if he knew man would fall, endure wickedness on earth, and most go to hell-He is responsible for this!!!!!!!!!!!
Jer: Uh, urr,....
Jer: The humanist.
You actually believe this "God is unfair, a sadist, responsible for man's fall, we have to teach children to sin....." theory?
An atheist to Jer Pate, Jr.:If there is a God, I would never worship a God that does what your God-sends people to an eternity in hell, because my God would not have darkness at all .
Jer: Well, uh, urr...
See how that works, humanist?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I argued that if the theory of Original Sin is true then God makes people with a sin nature and they emerge from the womb "utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil" then the LORD is responsible for the evil that they do.
I asked him that over 10 times, and who taught his children how to misbehave, i.e., selfishness, self centeredness, disobedience, greed,......=sin. It comes naturally, to a baby. What isn't natural, is what needs to be taught: obedience, charity, kindness, selflessness..... Hence, ...
Proverbs 22:6 KJV Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.