God's Truth
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That is pretty mild of you.
Why I Don't Believe in Calvinism or Predestination
- Thread starter Robert Pate
- Start date
That is pretty mild of you.
God has chosen all of humanity in his Son Jesus Christ. All that believe in Jesus are predestinated to be conformed to his Son.
glorydaz
Well-known member
I figure it does no good to discuss anything with either you or Danoh. Why waste my time?
God's Truth
New member
I don't. That's 100% Calvinism. Jesus came into the world to save sinners, not the righteous.
God's Truth
New member
That is Calvinism? You are a pathetic joke.
iouae
Well-known member
Predestination is a real Bible word, unlike words like "rapture".
But the Calvinists have changed "predestination" to mean that God knows every detail of the future, and that this future is thus predetermined.
The real concept of predestination is that God has certain goals, such as ending up with a crowd of saints. Enoch for instance was told ...
Jude 1:14
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Enoch knew he would be among that number.
God knew He was aiming to have saints, and that He would end up with thousands of saints, but who the specific saints would end up being, even God had no clue. He would call, and those who believed and came would be saved, and the rest condemned. It was up to them. And we realise that it is God who motivates us from within, who calls, and who perfects us, so He gets the credit. We are saved by grace.
Only a few specific folks like Jesus, John the Baptist, Jeremiah, David, Moses were known and called by God from the womb for specific purposes. The rest of us are like the seed which falls randomly on the ground. God is the sower, but even the Sower knows its up to some chance, some circumstances, some Devil mischief whether we finally make it. Even Paul acknowledged that he could become shipwrecked if he did not diligently attend to his own salvation with fear and trembling (1 Cor 9:27, Phi 2:12, 1 Ti 1:19). God offers us a crown, He goes to prepare a place for us - but whether someone else gets our crown and mansion - that is up to us not to blow it.
But the Calvinists have changed "predestination" to mean that God knows every detail of the future, and that this future is thus predetermined.
The real concept of predestination is that God has certain goals, such as ending up with a crowd of saints. Enoch for instance was told ...
Jude 1:14
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Enoch knew he would be among that number.
God knew He was aiming to have saints, and that He would end up with thousands of saints, but who the specific saints would end up being, even God had no clue. He would call, and those who believed and came would be saved, and the rest condemned. It was up to them. And we realise that it is God who motivates us from within, who calls, and who perfects us, so He gets the credit. We are saved by grace.
Only a few specific folks like Jesus, John the Baptist, Jeremiah, David, Moses were known and called by God from the womb for specific purposes. The rest of us are like the seed which falls randomly on the ground. God is the sower, but even the Sower knows its up to some chance, some circumstances, some Devil mischief whether we finally make it. Even Paul acknowledged that he could become shipwrecked if he did not diligently attend to his own salvation with fear and trembling (1 Cor 9:27, Phi 2:12, 1 Ti 1:19). God offers us a crown, He goes to prepare a place for us - but whether someone else gets our crown and mansion - that is up to us not to blow it.
ttruscott
Well-known member
I believe GOD made the offer of election to everyone who would accept HIS unproven claims by faith to be our creator GOD because they wanted to come under HIS promise of salvation from any and all sin as found in HIS Son the Christ by faith. Motive for accepting HIM was immaterial, only that a free will decision was made to be one of HIS elect to whom HE promised salvation.
Election was over by the time of the foundation of the earth, not just beginning.
ttruscott
Well-known member
If HE gets the credit for those saved, why does HE not get the discredit for the condemned ones? Why did HE not work harder with them or wait longer?
Do you not see how this disparages HIS nature as the GOD who is love which is never ending, patient and kind? Could you not start with HIS love and then develop a theology without this cognitive dissonance rather than live with a so called mystery?
Epoisses
New member
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 1Cor. 1:27,28
If you're a stupid, banana stealing monkey of a man you have a good shot.
If you're a stupid, banana stealing monkey of a man you have a good shot.
iouae
Well-known member
I will start with His love. God gave man 70 years to do everything possible to have a pleasant life, whether they like Him or not. That's a gift.
If they want more, then they just have to join His team, and He will give them eternal life.
I don't believe in an eternity in hell. Hell burns up the wicked, utterly destroys them. That is what a loving God does.
Because God always leaves the final choice to us to accept the calling, it is always our fault, never His.
He would have all to be saved, but all would not have themselves to be saved.
In the long run, good and evil have been blessed. The good get to enjoy an eternity of blessing, while the evil get 70 years of blessing. There is no down side to God.
ttruscott
Well-known member
A lot of theo-babble but no where do you say how HIS loving patience and kindness can ever end let alone last only a paltry 70 years? Your theology is man made and affronts the GOD who is love. Do you not know love or do you not know GOD?
iouae
Well-known member
If God is love, why are you so angry?
ttruscott
Well-known member
NOPE - this is not about me and neither will I let you lead me into a woozle hunt. Answer my question in post 353 and tell us why you think the way you do.
Romans 1:18 “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.”
Ephesians 5:6 “Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
glorydaz
Well-known member
What do YOU mean by election?
God's Truth
New member
We must only go by the scriptures, the words of God, and thew Word of God says faith alone is dead.
God doesn't even know you unless you obey Him. That scripture. You have to go by scripture.
iouae
Well-known member
I do not see why you have a problem with God's love. The problem exists only in your mind.
God gives man 70 years of wonderful life as a gift.
God's love offers all more life.
Some reject His offer.
If they were to live forever in conflict with God, they would be as miserable as the demons, or fallen angels.
So God wipes out incorrigible humans, at the end of their long lives. He does not burn them forever in hell. That would be mean.
Go through the Bible and look at God's love. It may surprise you.
God's love has His favourite Son brutally murdered.
God's love has Job suffer for a while.
God's love for Elisha is demonstrated in this true account, when children mocked Elisha's baldness.
2Ki 2:24
And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
God's love is not how YOU define it, but how He IS.
ttruscott
Well-known member
That you cannot admit your theology limits GOD's eternal love, HIS eternal patience and HIS never ending kindness to 70 years is my problem.
ttruscott
Well-known member
Although this is a strange direction to come at my beliefs, I believe in our Existence in Sheol prior to the creation of the physical universe. This is the time of my quote, not during our time on earth:
It was by our free will decision at this time that some became demonic, rejecting HIM totally and some became elect, accepting HIS deity but then chose to be sinners by rejecting HIS plans for the judgment and it is both types of sinners (and only sinners) who are born / sown into the world as human as per His explanation without metaphor, symbolism or analogy of our coming to earth: Matt 13:36 Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.”
37 He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
I agree but what is in scripture about our relationship with HIM is about our being sinners and how HE fulfills HIS promise to us of salvation which HE first preached to us in Sheol: Colossians 1:23...if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven [which has never happened on earth yet the verb proclaimed is a finished past action], and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
NOT about how our faith in YHWH as our GOD and our faith in HIS promise of salvation to be found in HIS Son brought us under HIS promise and so brought us into salvation BEFORE we sinned in Sheol (before the existence of the physical universe). It is this faith, a faith without works that ultimately saved us from all sin. On earth the fulfillment of our salvation as promised does indeed have works appended to it, causing the confusion because all churches reject that faith prior to human existence can be real.