ECT Moment of Salvation Compared to Water Baptism

turbosixx · Dec 9, 2017

Cross Reference said:
Then let the scriptures say what they say when they say this: "Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit." Hebrews 6:1-3 (KJV)

I do my best to understand what the bible is telling us.

I’m not sure what your point is by quoting these scriptures so I will guess.
The writer is not saying those things are no longer necessary, he’s upset with them, because by this time they should have matured past all basics. Look at the end of the previous chapter:
5:11 About this we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. 12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food,
That’s why he says 6:1 not laying again but let us go on.
I would suggest to you Satan has distorted the foundation from one of rock to sand. Today people do not become Christians the same way Jesus instructed the apostles and how the apostles executed those instructions.

Cross Reference said:
SO, "How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? Hebrews 2:3-4 (KJV)? Which is why Paul cautioned Timothy: "Do not be hasty [presumptuous?] in the laying on of hands, . . ." 1 Timothy 5:22 (ESV)

What do you believe was the purpose of spiritual gifts?

I believe it was to confirm the word was from God. That’s why it says “God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles” Here it say confirming the word signs:
Mark 16: 20 And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the message by accompanying signs.

turbosixx · Dec 9, 2017

God's Truth said:
You are in a denomination.

You belong to the denomination called the church of Christ.

That denomination is one like many others.

That denomination speaks against Jesus when it says you must be baptized according to their baptism or you are not saved.

We are not a denomination and I would never be in a denomination because we do not seek to divide Christ. We can put what ever name on our building we want but we choose to be a church of our Lord and Savior.
Rom. 16:16 Greet one another with a holy kiss. All the churches of Christ greet you.

What is your group called?

It is not our baptism it is the one Jesus commanded.
Matt. 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
How is that against Jesus??

turbosixx · Dec 9, 2017

Cross Reference said:
Jesus is the baptizer.

If we are going to let the bible say what it says, then it says only two groups were baptized with the Holy Spirit. Apostles and Cornelius. If the bible says someone else, please point it out to me.

Cross Reference said:
However,I am NOT calling the "laying on of hands", anything but a vehicle because it was the means Jesus used to baptize/gift followers.

Where does the bible call lying of hands a baptism?

Cross Reference said:
These disciples of John, [who had already been baptized in water for the remission of sins], Paul, by the laying on of his hands administered the gift of Jesus

You’re skipping something here. In between being baptized in John’s baptism, they were baptized in the name of Jesus before Paul laid his hands on them. What is being baptized in the name of Jesus?

turbosixx · Dec 9, 2017

Cross Reference said:
Receiving the Holy Spirit is NOT a baptism but the receiving of the same Spirit Jesus had in Him; the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Jesus was born with it. We, who are of Him were born again, received what Jesus possessed from His natural birth. He never had a need to be "born again". We do.

I agree receiving the Holy Spirit is not a baptism. Your reply here is from my comment that Cornelius was baptized with the Holy Spirit. I suggest to you he was just as the 12 were on Pentecost.
Acts 11: 15 As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them just as on us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

Cross Reference said:
Jesus experienced (2) baptisms before beginning His ministry. Both were recorded by Luke 4:1-14 KJV and Matthew 3:13-17 KJV. (1) was a manifestation of the Holy Spirit, the "coming upon", symbolized by the descending upon Him.

Could I get a little more detail? I only see one baptism in scripture.

turbosixx · Dec 9, 2017

Cross Reference said:
Forgiveness of sins = Water baptism, the outward revealing of "the desire to be a part of something". [The thief on the cross was not permitted to do this because of his circumstances and yet was still saved.]

How was the thief on the cross saved? More specifically, how were his sins forgiven?

Cross Reference · Dec 9, 2017

turbosixx said:
What scripture do you get this from?

Click to expand...

What did JTB say about Jesus?

Where does the bible call lying of hands a baptism?

Click to expand...

The laying on of hands is never a baptism but a conveyance of Spiritual gifts. However,cannot the baptism by Jesus Christ be such that it be called a Spiritual gift? "For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands," 2 Timothy 1:6 (ESV)

You’re skipping something here. In between being baptized in John’s baptism, they were baptized in the name of Jesus before Paul laid his hands on them. What is being baptized in the name of Jesus?

Click to expand...

Not at all. As I stated above, the laying of hands was for the conveyance of Spiritual gifts. Did not those disciples of John prophecy? If you rememeber, as I asked you, to re-read the account of the Peter at the house of Cornielus in Acts 9&10&11. Read and remember that water baptism followed their Holy Spirit baptism by Jesus Christ:

"And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. . . . For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God." [Acts 10:46 (KJV)] "Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life." Acts 11:15-18 (KJV)

Ref: "John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:" Luke 3:16 (KJV)

Cross Reference · Dec 9, 2017

turbosixx said:
How was the thief on the cross saved? More specifically, how were his sins forgiven?

In a Word: "JESUS". Now read the account more carefully. Use any translation you choose.

turbosixx · Dec 9, 2017

God's Truth said:
I gave many scriptures that show HOW we die to Christ.

Here are the scriptures you gave that show HOW we die with Christ but they really do not.

God's Truth said:
Romans 6:2
By no means! How can we who died to sin live in it any longer?

How did they die to sin? Paul tells us in the next verses.

God's Truth said:
Romans 6: 11In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

Dead to sin but not how we die with Christ.

God's Truth said:
Romans 6:6
We know that our old self was crucified with Him so that the body of sin might be rendered powerless, that we should no longer be slaves to sin.

How was the old self crucified with Him?

God's Truth said:
Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

How did they?

God's Truth said:
Galatians 5:16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

Nothing about dying

God's Truth said:
Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ, and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave

How crucified?

God's Truth said:
Colossians 2:20
If you have died with Christ to the spiritual forces of the world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its regulations:

Finally one about dying with Christ but it say IF you have.

God's Truth said:
Colossians 3:3
For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.

Say you died but doesn’t say how.

God's Truth said:
1 Peter 2:24
He Himself bore our sins in His body on the tree, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. "By His stripes you are healed."

Doesn’t say how we die with him.

God's Truth said:
Luke 13:3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.

Nothing about dying.

God's Truth said:
Acts 3:19 Therefore repent and turn back so that your sins may be wiped out,

Nothing about dying.

God's Truth said:
1 Thessalonians 4:1 As for other matters, brothers and sisters, we instructed you how to live in order to please God, as in fact you are living. Now we ask you and urge you in the Lord Jesus to do this more and more.

It’s about living not how we die with Christ.

Is there not a scripture that tells us how we die with Christ? There is but you intentionally skipped it. You don’t have to answer me but yourself, why?

Rom. 6:3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.

If you have a verse that show with are buried with Christ by some means other than baptism, I would be glad to look at it. Please, only one passage will do.

turbosixx · Dec 9, 2017

Cross Reference said:
The laying on of hands is never a baptism but a conveyance of Spiritual gifts.

Agreed.

Cross Reference said:
However,cannot the baptism by Jesus Christ

This is the part I disagree with. You say let the bible say what is says and I think we should stick with that. So where are you getting this?

turbosixx · Dec 9, 2017

Cross Reference said:
remember that water baptism followed their Holy Spirit baptism by Jesus Christ:

Do you believe Cornelius was a special situation? There is a complete chapter devoted to this one conversion and it's talked about in other chapters.

Let the bible say what it says. How many times does the bible tell us people were "baptized with the Holy Spirit"?

Cross Reference · Dec 9, 2017

turbosixx said:
Agreed.

This is the part I disagree with. You say let the bible say what is says and I think we should stick with that. So where are you getting this?

The Baptism by Jesus Christ is the Baptism INTO or BY, as in immersed in water, the Holy Spirit with the "Coming upon" as the evidence. Now cite your disagreement.

turbosixx · Dec 9, 2017

Cross Reference said:
The Baptism by Jesus Christ is the Baptism INTO or BY,as in immersion, the Holy Spirit with the "Coming upon" as the evidence. Now cite your disagreement.

My disagreement is, this is your opinion because you have not proved it out with scripture.

Cross Reference · Dec 9, 2017

turbosixx said:
Do you believe Cornelius was a special situation?

Click to expand...

No.

There is a complete chapter devoted to this one conversion and it's talked about in other chapters.

Click to expand...

And?

Let the bible say what it says. How many times does the bible tell us people were "baptized with the Holy Spirit"?

Click to expand...

Does what I have posited change the message the Bible is conveying to you? Show where?

Cross Reference · Dec 9, 2017

turbosixx said:
My disagreement is, this is your opinion because you have not proved it out with scripture.

To whose satisfaction? Yours? Too bad,. That's not my problem but yours.

I don't agree that it is my opinion by it being proven from the scripture you wilfully ignore.

You merely prove my point along other lines of doctrine, as well.

turbosixx · Dec 9, 2017

Cross Reference said:
No. And?

If we can't agree Cornelius was a special conversion, then we probably are wasting our time.
Why does this conversion have a complete long chapter devoted to it and during debates it's mentioned in two other chapters?

Cross Reference said:
Does what I have posited change the message the Bible is conveying to you? Show where?

Excellent question.
From your perspective, what baptism is this?
Acts 18:8 Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed in the Lord, together with his entire household. And many of the Corinthians hearing Paul believed and were baptized.

turbosixx · Dec 9, 2017

Cross Reference said:
To whose satisfaction? Yours? Too bad,. That's not my problem but yours.

I don't agree that it is my opinion by it being proven from the scripture you wilfully ignore.

You merely prove my point along other lines of doctrine, as well.

How can you expect me to accept your word without scriptural proof. If you have scripture to support it, please do. I suspect you don't by your attack.

Cross Reference · Dec 9, 2017

turbosixx said:
How can you expect me to accept your word without scriptural proof. If you have scripture to support it, please do. I suspect you don't by your attack.

Please do?? Address the much scriptural "PROOF" I have already given you or change your 'tune'! You give no reasons for not accepting it. You know you are wrong and are only objecting to those passages because you do not have the guts nor understanding to offer up an agreement with them. Perhaps your nit-picky Greek 'minutia' has something to offer as a way out for you. Go for it.

turbosixx · Dec 9, 2017

Cross Reference said:
Please do?? Address the much scriptural "PROOF" I have already given you or change your 'tune'! You give no reasons for not accepting it. You know you are wrong and are only objecting to those passages because you do not have the guts nor understanding to offer up an agreement with them. Perhaps your nit-picky Greek 'minutia' has something to offer as a way out for you. Go for it.

I apologize if I have come off harsh. That is not my intention.

turbosixx · Dec 9, 2017

Cross Reference said:
In a Word: "JESUS". Now read the account more carefully. Use any translation you choose.

I agree Jesus but how? Jesus hadn't died, been buried or resurrected offering his blood for our sins.
So how was he saved?

turbosixx · Dec 9, 2017

Cross Reference said:
Address the much scriptural "PROOF" I have already given you

I did address them. I broke them up to focus a little more on what each was saying. Maybe you missed my post #621 and 624.

ECT Moment of Salvation Compared to Water Baptism

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