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Thread: A Saviour unto Israel

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    Israel and the Church

    For those who do not realize that Israel and the Church are the same, they are showing a lack of understanding that Christ and the Church are the sum and substance of the O T Prophecy. Christ is in all the scripture Lk 24:44,47

    And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

    And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

    He and His People, believers in Him, are the terminus of prophetic scripture.

    The Nation of Israel had no other purpose for existence apart from being a type preparing the way for the New Covenant People of God of whom the end of the ages hath come 1 Cor 10:11


    11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples [a type]: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

    And without whom the OT Saints of old could not be perfected Heb 11:40

    40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

    Which again solidifies that the OT Saints are One Church with the NT Saints, for this is readily perceived with the Transfer to both jew and gentile the names and privileges originally attributed to National Israel i.e Rom 1:6-7

    6Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

    7To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Rom 9:24-26

    24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

    25As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

    26And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

    Also 1 Pet 2:9-10

    9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

    10Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

    These scriptures, duly considered, with the blessing of the Lord, can be seen to unite or to recognize the union of the OT Saints with NT Saints..
    Last edited by beloved57; June 7th, 2012 at 10:08 AM.
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Hi Beloved,
    If this is what you are trying to tell us:
    Israel was chosen as a foreshadow of things to come regarding the eternal kingdom ... then how can anyone argue with you?

    If you are saying that the LORD has now established one tree/one church made up of believers from among literal national Israel and the believers from among the nations ...then how can anyone argue with you?

    I find what you are sharing very interesting and haven't found anything to debate yet. However, I'm only on post 71...

    I think one of my favorite OT verses also fits what you are trying to say about the peoples coming out of the nations that have accepted our Savior as Lord over them:
    Psalm 82:8
    Arise, O God, judge the earth and inherit the nations.

    Our risen Lord Jesus will return to judge among the peoples of all the earth ... and will select his people and inherit the nations... not just physical Israel ... but the Israel found IN CHRIST.

    However, there is a part of me that says that the LORD is not finished with his using physical Israel/Jews ... for I feel that they are still used by him as a foreshadow of what God means to fulfill before he returns.

    What do you think about that?

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    Israel and the Church the same !

    That Israel and the Church are the same and are unified from the OT to the NT is seen in the Gospel and its proclamation.

    The Church’s oneness Is Taught By The Gospel Promises To The Patriarchs OR Father's, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob !

    That promise was made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Genesis 22:18 contains it as well as other parts of the Old Testament. “And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed: because thou hast obeyed My voice.”

    Now that is a gospel promise; let me ask you to look at Galatians 3:8, “The scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.”

    This same promise that Paul says belonged to the gentiles Justification, peter preaches it to the jews:

    in Acts 3:25, 26, said to the Jews, “Ye are the children of the prophets. and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. Unto you first God, having raised up His Son Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.”

    Of course Peter did not at this time realize that gentiles were included in those promises and were also the Children of the Prophets. For Abraham was a Prophet according to gen 20:7

    Now therefore restore the man [Abraham] his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou, and all that are thine.

    And Believers in Christ are Children of Abraham Gal 3 :7,29

    7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.


    29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed or children, and heirs according to the promise.

    Jew of Gentile, race does not matter, if we are of Faith the same are children of Abraham..

    So unknowingly peter in Acts 3 :25-26 was speaking about some gentiles to..

    And of course Paul made it clear in Gal 3:8

    So, NT Believers are The Children of the Patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and if we NT Believers are the Church of Christ, why not our Fathers ?

    We know Abraham believed in Christ from this scripture, for Jesus said of him Jn 8:56

    Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

    No doubt Jesus had been revealed to Him as His righteousness, and of His seed's righteousness as well !

    For certainly, if we the Children have Christ as our righteousness, then He must have been our Fathers righteousness. For the Children of Abraham, those God would justify by Faith Gal 3:8, He must have Justified their Father Abraham by Faith, and Christ was that seed to whom all the blessings of Justification would come by..

    And of Abraham's natural Children, Isaac was included, but Ishmael was rejected, Jacob was included, but Esau was rejected in blessing of Justification.

    So Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were believers in Christ ! And as Believers are Children of Abraham, so too of Isaac and Jacob.

    The great deceiver, has blinded many to this Truth..
    Last edited by beloved57; November 6th, 2013 at 09:34 AM.
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    That Israel and the Church are the same and are unified from the OT to the NT is seen in the Gospel and its proclamation.

    The Church’s oneness Is Taught By The Gospel Promises To The Patriarchs OR Father's, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob !

    That promise was made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Genesis 22:18 contains it as well as other parts of the Old Testament. “And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed: because thou hast obeyed My voice.”

    Now that is a gospel promise; let me ask you to look at Galatians 3:8, “The scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.”

    This same promise that Paul says belonged to the gentiles Justification, peter preaches it to the jews:

    in Acts 3:25, 26, said to the Jews, “Ye are the children of the prophets. and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. Unto you first God, having raised up His Son Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.”

    Of course Peter did not at this time realize that gentiles were included in those promises and were also the Children of the Prophets. For Abraham was a Prophet according to gen 20:7

    Now therefore restore the man [Abraham] his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou, and all that are thine.

    And Believers in Christ are Children of Abraham gal 3 :

    7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.


    29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed or children, and heirs according to the promise.

    Jew of Gentile, race does not matter, if we are of Faith the same are children of Abraham..

    So unknowingly peter in acts 3 :25-26 was speaking about some gentiles to..

    And of course Paul made it clear in Gal 3:8..

    So, NT Believers are The Children of the Patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and if we NT Believers are the Church of Christ, why not our Fathers ?

    We know Abraham believed in Christ from this scripture, for Jesus said of him Jn 8:56

    Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

    No doubt Jesus had been revealed to Him as His righteousness, and of His seed's righteousness as well !

    For certainly, if we the Children have Christ as our righteousness, then He must have been our Fathers righteousness. For the Children of Abraham, those God would justify by Faith gal 3:8, He must have Justified their Father Abraham by Faith, and Christ was that seed to whom all the blessings of Justification would come by..

    And of Abraham's natural Children, Isaac was included, but Ishmael was rejected, Jacob was included, but Esau was rejected in blessing of Justification.

    So Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were believers in Christ ! And as Believers are Children of Abraham, so too of Isaac and Jacob.

    The great deceiver, has blinded many to this Truth..
    Hi beloved,
    I accept your conclusions. I also believe that I have found the OT event where the identity and the work of the promised divine Messiah was revealed to Abraham.

    The event is found in Genesis 14 and especially in Genesis 15:1 KJV

    Abram had just successfully rescued Lot from the enemies of Sodom and Gomorrah. Melchizedik had come unto him and they partook of the sacraments of bread and wine and then Melchizekik blessed Abram.

    After these things the LORD God came to Abram in a vision and
    clearly explained the truth about the connection between Abram and Himself. He told Abram that HE was Abram shield and that HE was also Abram's exceeding great reward.

    IOW, God was Abram present protector, but was also to be the future exceeding great reward.


    quote:
    ... the Word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision saying, "Fear not, Abram. I AM thy shield, and (I AM) thy, exceeding great reward.


    Abram saw the DAY of our promised Lord Jesus ... and was glad of it!

    Later, in John 1:1 we are also told that Jesus was the WORD of God ... who WAS God and who was WITH God ... who had finally come.

    Our Lord Jesus was not only The WORD of God, who came to Abram ... but our Lord Jesus was also God - the promised great reward of Abram, who had finally arrived.

    QUESTION:
    How do I know that Abram immediately understood that this exceeding great reward was to come to him as a future descendant?

    Ans: Because Abram immediately asked the LORD God how this (exceeding great reward) could happen since he was obviously childless.

    After that the LORD told him that an heir would come forth to him out of his own bowels... and that this son (Isaac) would become the child of the promise. This is why tracing genealogy from Isaac was so important. The exceeding great reward would be a descendant of Isaac.
    Abram - comprehended it and was glad of it!

    This is exactly what Jesus was referring to when he said this to the religious leaders of his day.
    Abram got it! But those religious me did not.

    I totally agree with what you said here:
    So Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were believers in Christ ! And as Believers are Children of Abraham, so too of Isaac and Jacob.

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    Israel and Church the same, The Spiritual Family of Abraham !

    The Church’s Unity Is seen By A Prophecy in Isaiah

    The Father said to Christ, “It is a light thing that Thou shouldest be My servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel;

    I will also give Thee for a light to the Gentiles, that Thou mayest be My salvation unto the end of the earth” (Isaiah 49:6). In other words, it was God’s purpose that Christ, the Messiah, should not only save the preserved of Israel, but that He should be the Saviour of the Gentiles to the ends of the earth.

    But no man is saved apart from faith in Christ. When a Jew or a Gentile believes in Christ, he becomes manifestly a member of Abraham’s spiritual family and a member of the Household of God, and therefore a member of the one family in heaven and in earth

    Paul, of the Church, was an extension of Christ to fulfill this Purpose..acts 13:47

    For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

    Remember this command was given to Christ the servant in Isa 49:6..

    The Gentiles are those in the Nations that Abraham was made a Father to in Gen 17:


    5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Well, beloved, you could at least speak to me some time ... Say hi or I read your post, and it was interesting ... or something.
    Now, please don't just write the word 'SOMETHING.'
    Have a good day.

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    Did Paul spiritualize scripture ?
    One of the reasons for the confusion and error of not realizing the Church and Israel are the same people just under a different economy, is because its ignored how Paul spiritualized things in the OT to give their application and meaning into the NT which He served, for He was a Minister of the New Testament and in being so a Minister to the gentiles .

    2 Cor 3:6

    Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

    Rom 15:16

    That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

    Yes, its the same ministry..

    The New Covenant must be applied to the gentiles, this same one promised to Israel here Jer 31:31

    Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

    Now lets observe how Paul spiritualized scripture in the OT to give us to know that the OT in general was written with a underlying spiritual relevance not comprehended during the OT times but was to be revealed in the NT times 1 Pet 1:10-12


    10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

    11Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

    12Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.


    Now lets look at an instance of how Paul spiritualized events in the OT ! 1 Cor 10:1-4,11

    1Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

    2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

    3And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

    4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

    11Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

    Now think about what Paul has just stated here in this passage ! Spiritual food, drink, rock and Christ, now where in the written account of the Exodus is any of this mentioned ? For in the literal account we read of physical manna, water from a physical rock ! We observe the people of Israel passing through the red sea and a cloud by day and pillar by night, but there is no mention of baptism as Paul states. The point here is that the Apostle is demonstrating the proper way to interpret the OT ! Not only did the story literally happen in the OT but it had a higher and spiritual meaning which the Holy Spirit intended for it to have..Thats why Paul says to this same church earlier about the things he spake to them this:

    1 Cor 2:12-13

    12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

    13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

    Hence, spiritual food, spiritual drink, spiritual rock can mean a spiritual Israel The Church..
    Last edited by beloved57; November 12th, 2013 at 03:20 PM.
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Did Paul spiritualize scripture ? cont

    We have seen that Paul spiritualized the OT in 1 !or 10, and we will look at another passage in Galatians where he does it again Gal 4:21-31

    21Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

    22For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

    23But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

    24Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

    25For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

    26But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

    27For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

    28Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

    29But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

    30Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

    31So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

    Notice vs 24, which things [ OT History] an allegory ! The word is the greek word allēgoreō:

    ) to speak allegorically or in a figure

    Remember when Paul wrote that Adam was a figure of Him to come, Christ Rom 5:14

    Vines Dictionary states about the word allegory:


    translated in Gal 4:24 "contain an allegory" (AV, "are an allegory"), formed from allos, "other," and agoreuo, "to speak in a place of assembly" (agora, "the market-place"), came to signify "to speak," not according to the primary sense of the word, but so that the facts stated are applied to illustrate principles. The "allegorical" meaning does not do away with the literal meaning of the narrative. There may be more than one "allegorical" meaning though, of course, only one literal meaning. Scripture histories represent or embody spiritual principles, and these are ascertained, not by the play of the imagination, but by the rightful application of the doctrines of Scripture.

    Paul in this passage again spiritualized this history in the OT. Where can we read in genesis that Hagar is a Covenant or Mt Sinai ? What about Sarah being the New Covenant and is Mt Zion ? The fact is, it doesn't, but the inspired Apostle clearly tells us these things are true. Now the Church is built upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets with Christ being the Chief cornerstone.. Eph 2:20

    20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

    BTW this scripture proves the Oneness of the Church and Christ was and is the Head of the OT Prophets as He is the Head of the Apostles..for He is the Chief cornerstone..

    And this being the case, we should give heed to this type of interpretation by the Apostle who was made so by the Sovereign Will of God as per 2 Tim 1:1

    Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,

    Whats being seen here is that many of the OT events had a double meaning, the obvious literal and the higher, hidden, and spiritual meaning..

    The Spiritual meaning however can only be given by the Holy Ghost of God 1 Cor 2:12-14

    12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

    13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

    14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    A casual reading of the Literal history of the OT cannot reveal its higher and spiritual intent by God..
    Last edited by beloved57; June 21st, 2012 at 11:08 AM.
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    O T History had a Two Fold meaning !

    From our previous witness we showed how the inspired Paul spiritualized OT History in divulging that God had more than one meaning. For it is hard to miss this pattern, for there was an obvious literal, natural meaning.

    This is premised on a biblical order that God has established and maintained throughout world history, that is the natural first, then the spiritual 1 Cor 15:46

    46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

    And no, it does not revert back to natural as some erroneously teach..

    So, God's People Israel takes on two forms, first Natural Israel and afterward Spiritual Israel..

    Natural Israel was the Church in the wilderness Acts 7:38

    This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

    And we have the Spiritual Church Israel in the wilderness Rev 12:13-14

    13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

    14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

    The women here is the Church, the remnant of the seed of the women which was Christ..

    17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    Jesus Christ is the Head of the Church Eph 5:23

    For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the Saviour of the body.

    Col 1:24

    Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

    And so this method as per 1 Cor 15:45 The natural then the spiritual is how Paul understands the OT scripture, this cannot be denied.

    Paul speaks of the First and Natural Adam and the second and Spiritual Adam 1 Cor 15:45,47or who we know is the Lord Jesus Christ.

    So the First Adam a very real and natural person whose life is recorded in the OT scripture, is a representative of a Truth greater than he, there was something about him more deeper and spiritual, this is again alluded to by Paul here Eph 5:31-32


    31For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

    32This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

    Again Paul points this out in Rom 5:14


    14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

    However, by mere casual reading of the scripture, these deeper sublime truths would have not been revealed, but God raised up Paul for that purpose, and of course the Holy Spirit teaches these things through Him..

    I am here to tell you today, the natural Israel was merely a type a figure, the natural of the Spiritual Israel, the Church, God's Heavenly People..
    Last edited by beloved57; July 16th, 2012 at 06:20 AM.
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Are you publishing your first book here on TOL ... or are you wanting a discussion?

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    What has been set forth is of extreme importance in understanding OT scripture and how anointed , God ordained men like Paul explains it. The stories, ordinances , statues and covenants and people and things associated there with all have a deeper and spiritual meaning that will be grasped by the spiritually taught. The feast of the passover had a deeper spiritual meaning 1 Cor 5:7

    7Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

    The us, the Spiritual Israel..

    Other things like the altar, the priesthood, the sacrifices, laver and incense and other items under the OT all have a deeper spiritual meaning that is to be conveyed to God's Covenant People living under the NT..

    Lets look at some examples : The altar Ex 27:1

    1And thou shalt make an altar of shittim wood, five cubits long, and five cubits broad; the altar shall be foursquare: and the height thereof shall be three cubits.

    This was a type and prefigured the spiritual altar of the New Covenant Heb 13:10

    10We have an altar[Christ], whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.

    The Laver of washing Ex 30:18-21


    18Thou shalt also make a laver of brass, and his foot also of brass, to wash withal: and thou shalt put it between the tabernacle of the congregation and the altar, and thou shalt put water therein.

    19For Aaron and his sons shall wash their hands and their feet thereat:

    20When they go into the tabernacle of the congregation, they shall wash with water, that they die not; or when they come near to the altar to minister, to burn offering made by fire unto the LORD:

    21So they shall wash their hands and their feet, that they die not: and it shall be a statute for ever to them, even to him and to his seed throughout their generations.

    The laver typifies the once and for all washing of regeneration as well as the continual washing or cleansing in our daily lives from the defilement of sin..

    I of course could go on, but the point is to show that OT history typifies and finds it's fulfillment in the NT, that goes for the People as well..
    Last edited by beloved57; July 16th, 2012 at 07:50 AM.
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Israel the Children of Promise !

    Rom 9:6-8

    6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

    7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

    8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

    Israel, the Children of Promise ! There was a Children of Israel according to the flesh, and a children of Israel according to to Promise. Now to which Israel did God make the Promises to ? The Children of Israel according to the flesh or according to Promise, and without hesitation I answer the Israel, the Children of Promise.

    How do we discern discern which is which ? Lets seek the scripture to find a answer. As stated in Rom 9:6, Paul see's two Israel's, vs 7 seeds of Abraham, vs 8 Children of Abraham; Now within the scope of being children of Abraham, it could happen one of two ways, according to the flesh or according to promise.
    Last edited by beloved57; July 21st, 2012 at 05:48 PM.
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Israel the Children of Promise cont

    How do we discern discern which is which ? Lets seek the scripture to find a answer. As stated in Rom 9:6, Paul see's two Israel's, vs 7 seeds of Abraham, vs 8 Children of Abraham; Now within the scope of being children of Abraham, it could happen one of two ways, according to the flesh or according to promise.

    The Two Israels in vs 6 are of the flesh or of the promise [the spirit]

    Now Abraham had Two Sons, Before Issac was Ishmael. Ishmael can trace His natural [flesh] descent back to Abraham [as can natural Israel] for Jesus speaking to them [natural jews] says:

    Jn 8:37

    37I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

    Yet Ishmael was not counted as a Heir of Promise Gal 4:30


    30Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. see Rom 9:8

    In fact in Gal 4:22ff, the Apostle identifies natural Israel according to the flesh as Ishmael and his mother hagar, they representing that Israel constituted at Mt Sinai :


    24Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

    25For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

    And Identifies Isaac as as from the freewoman, born of promise to Abraham.

    Ishmael was born by the flesh to Abraham [in unbelief], But Isaac was born by the power of God's word of Promise to Abraham.

    You see Isaac was conceived and brought forth by the direct activity of God, Sarah having been hopelessly barren, and Abraham his Father was past the years of natural procreation ability [see Gen 17:17], but nevertheless God made a promise too them to give them a Son, A Heir. It was the power of that promise that brought forth Isaac in the womb, and likewise, its the sovereign power of God that gives being to the Children of Promise, which are born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of men, but of God Jn 1:13 [as Isaac] and thusly Isaac is a type or figure for the True Seed of Abraham, the Israel of Promise, born of the Holy Spirit of promise..even Isaac was born after the Spirit Gal 4:29

    But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after [or according to] the Spirit, even so it is now.

    Hence all the jews in the OT that were born after[or according to] the Spirit was the True Israel, the True olive Tree..
    Last edited by beloved57; July 21st, 2012 at 06:04 PM.
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    But Paul no doubt met with opposition and objection, that all of Isaac's natural descendants are of the Promise ! So Paul goes on to speak of his natural descendants, per Jacob and Esau, who where both born of Isaac and Rebekah Rom 9:10-13


    10And not only this; but when Rebbecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

    11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

    12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

    13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.


    So what Paul is doing is abolishing the false idea that the natural descendants determines whether or not one is included in the Israel of God or Promise. For it can be said of both Ishmael and Esau that they can be traced back to the natural lineage of Abraham, they are children of the flesh, however both were rejected from being heirs of promise or Israel of promise ! You see Abraham was given a seed born after the Spirit, that seed is Israel, but it has nothing to do with His natural children, although some of them have been grafted into that spiritual Israel, as even some gentiles as well..

    Folks it is those of Faith [ A Spiritual Fruit see Gal 5:22] that belong to Israel of promise to which pertains the promises Gal 3:7


    7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham=[Israel].

    And that regardless of ethnicity, without Faith from being born of the Spirit, all of Abraham's physical descendants are of the seed of satan[gentiles too], with no distinction between them and the offspring of Ishmael or Esau, or the sons of ketruah, Abraham's second wife, and as such they have no right or claim to any of God's gracious covenant of promises, nor to be regarded as Israel of promise, Rev 3:9

    9Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

    No doubt these where physical jews, but as Jesus told them once before Jn 8:44

    44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.
    Last edited by beloved57; December 2nd, 2013 at 03:58 PM.
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Rom 2:29 ;Rom 9:6,8

    29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

    6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

    8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

    What seed ? The Children of the promise are the seed of Israel !

    The seed of Israel that shall be Justified per Isa 45:25

    In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

    That seed of Israel is the same as the seed of Abraham in Gal 3:29



    29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed [Israel], and heirs according to the promise.

    That Israel is the Church ! Which belongs to Christ..To deny this is to deny scripture and call God a Liar..

    Now even though they are ignored or twisted, there are many scriptures in the NT where OT Prophecies regarding Israel's restoration or regathering are made to be realized in the Church, the One Christ builds Matt 16:18


    18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

    The greek word for build is Oikodomeo and means:

    to build a house, erect a building

    a) to build (up from the foundation)

    b) to restore by building, to rebuild, repair

    Notice He said I will be building MY Church, the Church of Me, in other words, it was presently His Church, that He would be building upon, for He himself is the foundation, so if He existed then and now, then so did His Church..The building material is but part of and erected from the foundation, Now who is the foundation ?

    1 Cor 3:11

    11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

    So this points to the Church as being the True Israel of God, the body of Him who is the True Israel of God, the seed of Abraham, Christ.

    Now notice something, Who is the seed of Abraham to whom the promises of God were made ? Lets look at Gal 3:16


    16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made.He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ

    Now, none but a fool would deny that Christ is the seed of Abraham from this scripture. Now Who is the Head of the Church, the Body ? Lets read here Eph 5:23

    For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the Saviour of the body.

    Now, is this the same Christ which is the seed of Abraham in Gal 3:16 ?

    If it is, then whats to keep us from saying that the seed of Abraham is the Head of the Church ?

    Did this Seed of Abraham exist in the OT ?

    And this True Israel is made up of both believing Gentiles and believing Jews, for this is the Israel that is of Abraham's Faith, and not of His blood..hence the differences outlined here by Paul Rom 9:6-8


    6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

    7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

    8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

    The Children of Faith are the True Children of God as per Gal 3:26

    For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

    Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were True Israel, Children of God, by Faith in Christ, not because of their blood or Ethnicity..Now there Faith in Christ constituted them the seed of Abraham as per Gal 3:29

    29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    So from the Faith perspective, Did Christ Church, of which He is the Head of as the seed of Abraham, did it exist in the OT..

    Did Abraham Isaac, and Jacob believe in or Have Faith in a Living Christ ?
    Last edited by beloved57; December 2nd, 2013 at 04:00 PM.
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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