Are you bound by the Mosaic Laws or Rabbinic Judaism?

CherubRam

New member
Are you bound by the Mosaic Laws or Rabbinic Judaism? Are the Mosaic Laws and the New Covenant irreconcilable with each other? Are people looking for a Jewish identity in the New Covenant with Yahshua the Messiah?


What is Messianic Judaism all about?



I was reading this, written by a Rabbi many years ago.

In the future all sacrifices, with the exception of the Thanksgiving-sacrifice, will be discontinued.
(Midrash Vayikra Rabbah 9:7)


And that all sacrifices will be annulled in the future.
(Tanchuma Emor 19, Vayikra Rabbah 9:7)

Thoughts?



There is no accepted authoritative answer within Judaism as to which mitzvot, if any, would be annulled.



Most mitzvot will no longer be in force.
(Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Niddah 61b and Tractate Shabbat 151b)

What made ancient Rabbi's think sacrifices and Festivals would be done away with?
 

CherubRam

New member
[FONT=&quot]Feast Festivals[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Lamentations 2:6[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]He has laid waste his dwelling like a garden; he has destroyed his place of meeting. The Lord has made Zion forget her appointed festivals and her Sabbaths; in his fierce anger he has spurned both king and priest.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Hosea 2:11[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Amos 5:21[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Malachi 2:3[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts; and one shall take you away with it.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Zephaniah 3:18[/FONT] KJ[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I will gather them that are sorrowful for the solemn assembly,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] who are of thee, to whom the reproach of it was a burden.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Zephaniah 3:18[/FONT] NIV[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“I will remove from you all who mourn over the loss of your appointed festivals,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] which is a burden and reproach for you.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
 

CherubRam

New member
Zechariah 11:10
Then I took my staff called Favor and broke it, revoking the covenant I had made with all the nations.

Jeremiah 31:31
“The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a covenant with the people of Israel (nation) and with the people of Judah (faithful.)

The Old Covenant of Circumcision was revoked by God, and a New Covenant was established in 33 AD. The New Covenant consist of keeping the Moral commands of God, the Sabbath, and being baptized in Christ name. I studied the Koran about the covenants, and it seems that Mohammad neglected to include a covenant for Muslims. Muslims and Jews cannot be included in a Covenant of Circumcision, because that covenant was revoked in 70 AD.
Again, the Old Testament says that God would revoked the Old Covenant of Circumcision and establish another covenant. Therefore Muslims and Jews are living with no covenant with God. Well, that is what happens when you follow Mohammad and his made up religion, or Jewish Rabbi's that do not listen to God.

Apart from the covenant of circumcision, God also made a covenant that He would not completely destroy the people, and that the seed of Abraham would continue. The covenant of circumcision is separate from the covenant that Abraham's seed would continue and not be completely cut off.



Here is that covenant that God promised Abraham that He would not revoke.
Genesis 17:4-5
“As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 5 No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations. 5 No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations. 6 I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. 7 I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you.

And then God added this Covenant of Circumcision.
Genesis 17:9-14.
9 Then God said to Abraham, “As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. 13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”
Forever is forever, unless the covenant is revoked.
 
Last edited:

iouae

Well-known member
Nobody today, not Jew or Christian or the State of Israel keep Mosaic law.

If they did, the following would earn someone the death penalty...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_capital_crimes_in_the_Torah

Religious practices[edit]
Sacrificing to gods other than YHWH[1][2]
Passing children through the fire to/as [MLK]. The triconsonantal root MLK has traditionally been translated as if it were the name of an otherwise unattested deity - Moloch - but may just describe a type of sacrifice. It is generally thought that this refers to a form of human sacrifice similar to that of which the Phoenicians (particularly in Carthage) have historically been widely accused[3] However, the Septuagint reads "You shall not give your seed to serve a ruler", suggesting that the root M-L-K should be more properly rendered as 'king/ruler'.
Worshiping Baal Peor[4]
False prophecy[5][6][7]
Necromancy, according to the Masoretic Text; specifically those who are masters over ghosts (Hebrew: Ba'al ob) and those who gain information from the dead (Hebrew: Yidde'oni).[8] The Septuagint instead condemns gastromancy (Greek: eggastrimuthos), and enchantment (Greek: epaoidos).[9]
According to the Masoretic Text, practitioners of kashaph[10] - incanting maleficium. According to the Septuagint version of the same passages, pharmakeia[11] - poisoners. Historically this passage has been translated into English using vague terminology, condemning witchcraft in general.[12]
Blasphemy[13]
Sabbath breaking[14][15][16]
A foreigner (outsider) who gets close to the tabernacle[17]
Sexual practices[edit]
Rape by a man of a betrothed woman in the countryside[18]
Being either participant in consensual sexual activity, in which a betrothed woman consensually loses her virginity to a man[19]
Adultery with a married woman[20]
Loss of virginity by a woman prior to marriage, to someone other than her husband while falsely representing herself as a virgin before the marriage ceremony[21]
Marrying one's wife's mother[22]
Certain forms of incest, namely if it involves the father's wife or a daughter-in-law.[23] Other forms of incest receive lesser punishment; sexual activity with a sister/stepsister is given excommunication for a punishment;[24] if it involves a brother's wife or an uncle's wife it is just cursed[25] and sexual activity with an aunt that is a blood relation is merely criticized.[26]
Male on male sexual intercourse.[27] Certain sexual activities between males (Hebrew: zakhar) involving what the Masoretic Text literally terms lie lyings (of a) woman (Hebrew: tishkav mishkvei ishah),[28][29] and the Septuagint literally terms beds [verb] the woman's/wife's bed (Greek: koimethese koiten gynaikos);[30][31] the gender of the target of the command is commonly understood to be male, but not explicitly stated. The correct translation and interpretation of this passage, and its implications for homosexuality in Judaism and homosexuality in Christianity, are controversial. Translations into English are wide-ranging.[32][33]
Bestiality[34][35]
Prostitution by the daughter of a priest[36]
Miscellaneous[edit]
Murder, believed by Jews to apply to non-Jews as well[37][38][39][40]
Negligent homicide, specifically by ox-goring, if already warned about the behavior of the ox. Death punishment is no longer required if the interested party requires payment of a fee. The death penalty does not apply to ox-goring of slaves.[41]
Smiting a parent[42]
Cursing a parent[43][44]
A son who persists in disobeying his parents[45][46]
Kidnapping[47][48]
Contempt of court[49]
False witness to a capital crime[50]
 

Jacob

BANNED
Banned
Both Mosaic and Rabbinic law are relevant only to Jews.

Some people who turn to God from among the Gentiles observe some of these laws. While not observing them may be considered a transgression, especially if there is a violation of the Torah laws or commandments. I am circumcised and observe the Law of Moses. Not all who turn to God from among the Gentiles do this. Many simply observe four essentials. In terms of the nations, we all have the Noahide Laws. In terms of the nation of Israel, we have the Law of Moses, the Mosaic Law, Torah Law, etc.... As a Jew, I agree with you.
 

daqq

Well-known member
Are you bound by the Mosaic Laws or Rabbinic Judaism? Are the Mosaic Laws and the New Covenant irreconcilable with each other? Are people looking for a Jewish identity in the New Covenant with Yahshua the Messiah?


What is Messianic Judaism all about?



I was reading this, written by a Rabbi many years ago.

In the future all sacrifices, with the exception of the Thanksgiving-sacrifice, will be discontinued.
(Midrash Vayikra Rabbah 9:7)


And that all sacrifices will be annulled in the future.
(Tanchuma Emor 19, Vayikra Rabbah 9:7)

Thoughts?



There is no accepted authoritative answer within Judaism as to which mitzvot, if any, would be annulled.



Most mitzvot will no longer be in force.
(Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Niddah 61b and Tractate Shabbat 151b)

What made ancient Rabbi's think sacrifices and Festivals would be done away with?

The expectation was that when Meshiah arrived he would expound all of the Torah, Prophets, and Writings: and he most assuredly did, opening his mouth in parables, expounding things even hidden from the foundation of the kosmos. :)
 

daqq

Well-known member
You guys are not paying attention to the questions being asked.

Perhaps you forgot some of what you asked?

quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by CherubRam
I was reading this, written by a Rabbi many years ago.

In the future all sacrifices, with the exception of the Thanksgiving-sacrifice, will be discontinued.
(Midrash Vayikra Rabbah 9:7)

And that all sacrifices will be annulled in the future.
(Tanchuma Emor 19, Vayikra Rabbah 9:7)

Thoughts?

:carryon:
 

daqq

Well-known member
In what way is the New Covenant NOT like the Old Covenant?

Probably in just about every way that one could imagine. For example the conscience is likened to a garment: therefore my tzitzit are tied at the four quadrants of the four winds, in the four wings of my garment, which means my tzitzit do not show at all except hopefully in actions and speech. Moreover I need not worry too much about whether the tekelet blue-zeal is "the true blue" or not because the color speaks toward the zeal, (compare Exo 28:31-32, Isa 59:17, and Jhn 19:23). But perhaps that is just me. :)
 

CherubRam

New member
[FONT=&quot]Daniel 9:27[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[FONT=&quot]He will confirm a covenant[/FONT] with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ [FONT=&quot]he will put an end to sacrifice and offering.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Zechariah 11:10[/FONT]
Then I took my staff called Favor and broke it, [FONT=&quot]revoking the covenant[/FONT] I had made with all the nations.

[FONT=&quot]Malachi 3:1[/FONT]
“I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; [FONT=&quot]the messenger of the covenant[/FONT], whom you desire, will come,” says the LORD Almighty.

[FONT=&quot]Matthew 26:28[/FONT]
This is my blood of [FONT=&quot]the covenant[/FONT], which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Festivals rejected by Yahwah.

[FONT=&quot]Psalm 40:6[/FONT]
Sacrifice and offering you did not desire— but a body you have prepared for me — burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not require.

[FONT=&quot]Psalm 51:16[/FONT]
You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings.

[FONT=&quot]Proverbs 21:3[/FONT]
To do what is right and just is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.

[FONT=&quot]Isaiah 1:11[/FONT]
“The multitude of [FONT=&quot]your sacrifices[/FONT]— what are they to me?” says the LORD. “I have more than enough of burnt offerings, of rams and the fat of fattened animals; I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.

[FONT=&quot]Isaiah 1:14[/FONT]
Your New Moon feasts and [FONT=&quot]your appointed festivals[/FONT] I hate with all my being. They have become a burden to me; I am weary of bearing them.

[FONT=&quot]Zephaniah 3:18[/FONT]
“I will remove from you all who mourn over the loss of [FONT=&quot]your appointed festivals[/FONT], which is a burden and reproach for you.

[FONT=&quot]Lamentations 2:6[/FONT]
He has laid waste his dwelling like a garden; he has destroyed his place of meeting. The LORD has made Zion forget [FONT=&quot]her appointed festivals[/FONT] and her Sabbaths; in his fierce anger he has spurned both king and priest.

[FONT=&quot]Hosea 2:11[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I will stop all her celebrations:[/FONT] her yearly festivals, her New Moons, her Sabbath days—all her appointed festivals.

[FONT=&quot]Amos 5:21[/FONT]
“I hate, I despise [FONT=&quot]your[/FONT] religious festivals; your assemblies are a stench to me.[/FONT]
 

Danoh

New member
[FONT=&quot]Daniel 9:27[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[FONT=&quot]He will confirm a covenant[/FONT] with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ [FONT=&quot]he will put an end to sacrifice and offering.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Zechariah 11:10[/FONT]
Then I took my staff called Favor and broke it, [FONT=&quot]revoking the covenant[/FONT] I had made with all the nations.

[FONT=&quot]Malachi 3:1[/FONT]
“I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; [FONT=&quot]the messenger of the covenant[/FONT], whom you desire, will come,” says the LORD Almighty.

[FONT=&quot]Matthew 26:28[/FONT]
This is my blood of [FONT=&quot]the covenant[/FONT], which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Festivals rejected by Yahwah.

[FONT=&quot]Psalm 40:6[/FONT]
Sacrifice and offering you did not desire— but a body you have prepared for me — burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not require.

[FONT=&quot]Psalm 51:16[/FONT]
You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings.

[FONT=&quot]Proverbs 21:3[/FONT]
To do what is right and just is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.

[FONT=&quot]Isaiah 1:11[/FONT]
“The multitude of [FONT=&quot]your sacrifices[/FONT]— what are they to me?” says the LORD. “I have more than enough of burnt offerings, of rams and the fat of fattened animals; I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.

[FONT=&quot]Isaiah 1:14[/FONT]
Your New Moon feasts and [FONT=&quot]your appointed festivals[/FONT] I hate with all my being. They have become a burden to me; I am weary of bearing them.

[FONT=&quot]Zephaniah 3:18[/FONT]
“I will remove from you all who mourn over the loss of [FONT=&quot]your appointed festivals[/FONT], which is a burden and reproach for you.

[FONT=&quot]Lamentations 2:6[/FONT]
He has laid waste his dwelling like a garden; he has destroyed his place of meeting. The LORD has made Zion forget [FONT=&quot]her appointed festivals[/FONT] and her Sabbaths; in his fierce anger he has spurned both king and priest.

[FONT=&quot]Hosea 2:11[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I will stop all her celebrations:[/FONT] her yearly festivals, her New Moons, her Sabbath days—all her appointed festivals.

[FONT=&quot]Amos 5:21[/FONT]
“I hate, I despise [FONT=&quot]your[/FONT] religious festivals; your assemblies are a stench to me.[/FONT]

You have completely ignored the fact that HE gave them those sacrifices.

And you have done so in your having confused His expression of His displeasure with what they had made of them, in their disobedience.

Malachi 1:6 A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master: if then I be a father, where is mine honour? and if I be a master, where is my fear? saith the LORD of hosts unto you, O priests, that despise my name. And ye say, Wherein have we despised thy name? 1:7 Ye offer polluted bread upon mine altar; and ye say, Wherein have we polluted thee? In that ye say, The table of the LORD is contemptible. 1:8 And if ye offer the blind for sacrifice, is it not evil? and if ye offer the lame and sick, is it not evil? offer it now unto thy governor; will he be pleased with thee, or accept thy person? saith the LORD of hosts.

And so on...

Nevertheless, Rom. 5: 6-8 towards you.
 

CherubRam

New member
You have completely ignored the fact that HE gave them those sacrifices.

And you have done so in your having confused His expression of His displeasure with what they had made of them, in their disobedience.

Malachi 1:6 A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master: if then I be a father, where is mine honour? and if I be a master, where is my fear? saith the LORD of hosts unto you, O priests, that despise my name. And ye say, Wherein have we despised thy name? 1:7 Ye offer polluted bread upon mine altar; and ye say, Wherein have we polluted thee? In that ye say, The table of the LORD is contemptible. 1:8 And if ye offer the blind for sacrifice, is it not evil? and if ye offer the lame and sick, is it not evil? offer it now unto thy governor; will he be pleased with thee, or accept thy person? saith the LORD of hosts.

And so on...

Nevertheless, Rom. 5: 6-8 towards you.

[FONT=&quot]Festivals, Sacrifices, and Offerings[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Jeremiah 7[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
21 This is what the Lord of Hosts, the God of Israel, says: “Add your burnt offerings to your other sacrifices, and eat the meat yourselves, 22 for when I brought your ancestors out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak with them or command them concerning burnt offering and sacrifice.
26 However, they wouldn’t listen to Me or pay attention, but became obstinate; they did more evil than their ancestors. [/FONT]
 

clefty

New member
Are you bound by the Mosaic Laws or Rabbinic Judaism? Are the Mosaic Laws and the New Covenant irreconcilable with each other? Are people looking for a Jewish identity in the New Covenant with Yahshua the Messiah?


What is Messianic Judaism all about?



I was reading this, written by a Rabbi many years ago.

In the future all sacrifices, with the exception of the Thanksgiving-sacrifice, will be discontinued.
(Midrash Vayikra Rabbah 9:7)


And that all sacrifices will be annulled in the future.
(Tanchuma Emor 19, Vayikra Rabbah 9:7)

Thoughts?



There is no accepted authoritative answer within Judaism as to which mitzvot, if any, would be annulled.



Most mitzvot will no longer be in force.
(Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Niddah 61b and Tractate Shabbat 151b)

What made ancient Rabbi's think sacrifices and Festivals would be done away with?

Rather Mercy than sacrifice.

Heb 10:4 sacrifice does not do away with sin.

No longer need for shedding of blood...His is sufficient

That being said we are not bound...we want to

For some it’s like breathing....we breathe not to become alive but because we are alive...we were made to do so
 

CherubRam

New member
The laws that govern the Festivals, sacrifices, and the offerings are the Mosaic laws. Christians are still obligated to keep the commands of God.


Jeremiah 7
21 This is what the Lord of Hosts, the God of Israel, says: “Add your burnt offerings to your other sacrifices, and eat the meat yourselves, 22 for when I brought your ancestors out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak with them or command them concerning burnt offering and sacrifice. 23 However, I did give them this command: Obey Me, and then I will be your God, and you will be My people. You must follow every way I command you so that it may go well with you. 24 Yet they didn’t listen or pay attention but followed their own advice and according to their own stubborn, evil heart.

Yahwah did instruct Moses on how the Israelites were to preform the Festivals, sacrifices, and offerings. And that is the difference between God's commands and the Mosaic laws of the priesthood.
 

CherubRam

New member
Three Shepherds And The Revoked Covenant

Zechariah 11:7-11. Three Shepherds And The Revoked Covenant.


Zechariah 11
7 So I pastured the flock marked for slaughter, particularly the oppressed of the flock. Then I took two staffs and called one Favor and the other Union, and I pastured the flock.
8 In one month I got rid of the three shepherds.
The flock detested me, and I grew weary of them 9 and said, "I will not be your shepherd. Let the dying die, and the perishing perish. Let those who are left eat one another's flesh."
10 Then I took my staff called Favor and broke it, revoking the covenant I had made with all the nations.
11 It was revoked on that day, and so the afflicted of the flock who were watching me knew it was the word [Yahshua] of [the Lord / Yahwah.]

The Sadducees were members of a Jewish sect founded in the second century BC, possibly as a political party. They ceased to exist sometime after the first century AD.

Thus the Three Shepherds: Sanhedrin, Sadducees, and Pharisees.


Mourning for the One They Pierced


Zechariah 12:10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look upon [me / him], the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

Why do Jews ignore that the Old Covenant has been "revoked?"
 

Jacob

BANNED
Banned
Three Shepherds And The Revoked Covenant

Zechariah 11:7-11. Three Shepherds And The Revoked Covenant.


Zechariah 11
7 So I pastured the flock marked for slaughter, particularly the oppressed of the flock. Then I took two staffs and called one Favor and the other Union, and I pastured the flock.
8 In one month I got rid of the three shepherds.
The flock detested me, and I grew weary of them 9 and said, "I will not be your shepherd. Let the dying die, and the perishing perish. Let those who are left eat one another's flesh."
10 Then I took my staff called Favor and broke it, revoking the covenant I had made with all the nations.
11 It was revoked on that day, and so the afflicted of the flock who were watching me knew it was the word [Yahshua] of [the Lord / Yahwah.]

The Sadducees were members of a Jewish sect founded in the second century BC, possibly as a political party. They ceased to exist sometime after the first century AD.

Thus the Three Shepherds: Sanhedrin, Sadducees, and Pharisees.


Mourning for the One They Pierced


Zechariah 12:10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look upon [me / him], the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

Why do Jews ignore that the Old Covenant has been "revoked?"

I do not know what you are asking.

Why does verse 10 say

the covenant I had made with all the nations

?

Shalom.

Jacob
 

CherubRam

New member
Psalm 89:39. NIV
39 You have renounced the covenant with your servant and have defiled his crown in the dust.
 
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