ECT WHO DOES THE FATHER DRAW TODAY ??

DAN P

Well-known member
Hi to all and John 6:44 reads , No man can come to me , except the FATHER which has sent me DRAW him , and I will raise him up at the LAST DAY !

#1 , What is the context of John 6:44 ? since the first Greek verb is in the Greek PRESENT TENSE and places this time only in Jesus earthly ministry !!

#2 , Does this means that salvation is ONLY through the DRAWING of power of the Father ?

#3 The third verb DRAW / HELKO is in the Greek AORIST TENSE and in the Greek SUBJECTIVE MOOD of possibility that the Father will DRAW or NOT DRAW !!

We know from 2 Cor 3:16 , that unless a Jew should TURN towards the Lord , the COVERING / VAIL , is taken away , and only then can he be saved !!

#4 The next Greek word is UP / ANISTEMI and is in the Greek FUTURE TENSE and when is that to happen ??

And the FATHER was drawing Israel back to Himself is who He was DRAWING and they rejected Him !!



It only can happen after Rom 11:25 when the FULNESS OF THE GENTILES may come in !!

Then Rom 11:26 will be the salvation of Israel and ONLY until then will " I will raise him UP at the Last Day will happen !!

John 6:44 has NOTHING to do with this day as OUR day is found in 1 Cor 15 :51-58 OR in 1Thess 4:13-18 !!

dan p
 

ttruscott

Well-known member
GOD is drawing all HIS sinful elect (the sinful good seed) to Christ by giving them the experience of living with the tares and the suffering that entails with no foreseeable end in sight to open their eyes to their need for a saviour which they reject without HIS grace, Rom 1... HE draws them to their redemption and sanctification.
 

DAN P

Well-known member
GOD is drawing all HIS sinful elect (the sinful good seed) to Christ by giving them the experience of living with the tares and the suffering that entails with no foreseeable end in sight to open their eyes to their need for a saviour which they reject without HIS grace, Rom 1... HE draws them to their redemption and sanctification.

Hi and I know about TARES and WHEAT in Matt 13:37 is Jesus SOWING the good seed and in verse 39 the devil is the enemy that sowed the wicked seed and this HARVEST is at the end of the world and this happens at the end of the Great tribulation !!

I see two contexts here , and Matt 13 speaks to Israel and NOT to the Body of Christ !!

Thanks for replying !!

dan p
 
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glorydaz

Well-known member
Hi to all and John 6:44 reads , No man can come to me , except the FATHER which has sent me DRAW him , and I will raise him up at the LAST DAY !

#1 , What is the context of John 6:44 ? since the first Greek verb is in the Greek PRESENT TENSE and places this time only in Jesus earthly ministry !!

#2 , Does this means that salvation is ONLY through the DRAWING of power of the Father ?

#3 The third verb DRAW / HELKO is in the Greek AORIST TENSE and in the Greek SUBJECTIVE MOOD of possibility that the Father will DRAW or NOT DRAW !!

We know from 2 Cor 3:16 , that unless a Jew should TURN towards the Lord , the COVERING / VAIL , is taken away , and only then can he be saved !!

#4 The next Greek word is UP / ANISTEMI and is in the Greek FUTURE TENSE and when is that to happen ??

And the FATHER was drawing Israel back to Himself is who He was DRAWING and they rejected Him !!



It only can happen after Rom 11:25 when the FULNESS OF THE GENTILES may come in !!

Then Rom 11:26 will be the salvation of Israel and ONLY until then will " I will raise him UP at the Last Day will happen !!

John 6:44 has NOTHING to do with this day as OUR day is found in 1 Cor 15 :51-58 OR in 1Thess 4:13-18 !!

dan p

Good post, Dan. When I read that blindness IN PART has happened to Israel, it, obviously doesn't preclude a Jew hearing the Gospel of Grace and being saved before that "fulness of the Gentiles" come in, right? Which would necessitate they first had to accept Jesus as their Messiah.
 

ttruscott

Well-known member
Hi and I know about TARES and WHEAT in Matt 13:37 is Jesus SOWING the good seed and in verse 39 the devil is the enemy that sowed the wicked seed and this HARVEST is at the end of the world and this happens at the end of the Great tribulation !!

I see tow contexts here , and Matt 13 speaks to Israel and NOT to the Body of Christ !!

Thanks for replying !! dan p

How are the good seed, the PEOPLE OF THE KINGDOM, as opposite the people of the evil one, NOT the Body of Christ which includes both Israelites and Gentiles? CLaiming they refer only to Israel may solve a theological difficulty for you but it does too much damage to the plain meaning of His words for me.
 

DAN P

Well-known member
How are the good seed, the PEOPLE OF THE KINGDOM, as opposite the people of the evil one, NOT the Body of Christ which includes both Israelites and Gentiles? CLaiming they refer only to Israel may solve a theological difficulty for you but it does too much damage to the plain meaning of His words for me.


Hi and if you understood Gal 3:28 , YOU WILL NOTICE that in the Body of Christ THERE ARE NO JEWS or GENTILES !

dan p
 
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ttruscott

Well-known member
Hi and if you understood Gal 3:28 , YOU WILL NOTICE that is the Body of Christ THERE ARE NO JEWS or GENTILES !

dan p
Nice red herring with post 3 then...

You brought up Israel, not me... All human members of the body of Christ started as either Jew or Gentile which become unimportant in Christ.
 

DAN P

Well-known member
Nice red herring with post 3 then...

You brought up Israel, not me... All human members of the body of Christ started as either Jew or Gentile which become unimportant in Christ.


Hi and read Col 3:11 and very similar to Gal 3:28 and says THERE CAN NOT BE , THERE CAN NOT BE and what do you thing THERE CAN NOT BE means ? It means THERE CAN NOT BE Jews nor GENTILES in the Body of Christ as everyone in the B O C is a new Creation !!

What part of post #3 is a RED HERRING ??

dan p
 

Danoh

New member
Nice red herring with post 3 then...

You brought up Israel, not me... All human members of the body of Christ started as either Jew or Gentile which become unimportant in Christ.

Only the "red herring" YOU read INTO his intent.

For what DanP had rightly meant is that because Matthew concerns Israel, the wheat and the tares in chapter 13 are both about Israel.

Matthew concerns Israel...

Matthew 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Matthew concerns Israel..

Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mathew concerns Israel...

Matthew 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. 13:17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

And there are many more evidences in Matthew that what DanP had meant when he brought up Israel in connection with Matthew 13, is correct - Matthew concerns Israel.

That nation had been meant to be what?

Exodus 19:3 And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel; 19:4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself. 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

That is the kingdom of heaven on earth that Israel was to have been the nation state representative of.

Back to the following...

Matthew 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Note the following two passages in all that...

Matthew 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

He was speaking of the wheat and the rates within the nation Israel.

Note...

Matthew 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Notice that this kingdom of heaven contains both tares and wheat - "13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Matthew concerns Israel's tears and wheat...

Matthew 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

All that is this...

Daniel 11:30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant. 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.

And this...

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: ) 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Here is what He described in Matthew 13, repeated by Him in...

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

In short, you are the one who is off on that, not DanP.

Acts 17: 11, 12.
 
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