ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

God_Is_Truth said:

Funny how Paul's entire message in Romans 9 is about Israel, the Gentiles and the body of Christ, which is obvious from his conclusion:

Romans 9
30What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;

31but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.

Paul is not speaking about predestination or unconditional election no matter how hard you want him to be.

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Exactly. Rom. 9-11 is about the election of national Israel. Paul was addressing the Jewish Christians in Rome who were jealous of the inclusion of the Gentiles and wondered what role Israel had or now has in light of this. The context is not a proof text passage for TULIP.

A new twist

A new twist

I've been waiting for one specific word to come up, and so far it hasn't. I suppose it has something to do with the fact that most of the active posters here seem to be Protestants (or at any rate, not Catholic). Non-Catholic types don't use this word much in talking about religion and theology. The word? Mystery. More specifically, Divine Mystery. Watch and learn:

Calvinist:
God predestined everything and took away your free will (and, oh, by the way, His free will too), but it's all good because He did it for His glory.
Any other person:
But how is it to God's glory to have a bunch of robots doing what He decided an eternity ago that they should do? Wouldn't it be more gloriful to have real people, with real wills, and maybe even - if they're lucky - real souls?
Calinvist:
It's just a Divine Mystery, we can't understand it because we're not God (and anyway, He didn't predestine us to understand it, so we're just out of luck)

Open Theist:
God can't know the future, it doesn't EXIST yet! So, naturally we have free will. Of course, God could have decided to predestine some things...I guess, but I'm sure He only does that when He has to. After all, if God predestined stuff, well, that just wouldn't be very nice, now would it?
Any other person:
But how do we know what's predestined and what's free???????
Open Theist:
We can't
Any other person
But then, doesn't that make our entire doctrine of God a little shaky?
Open Theist:
Of course not! Just because we don't know something, doesn't mean it's shaky. It's a Divine Mystery!!! Isn't that nifty!


And before you all get offended, that was meant to be a little humorous as well. My Calvinist was a little cynical, because most Calvinists I've met sound cynical. My Open Theist was a little naive, because most Open Theists I know sound naive (even if they're not). On a more serious note though, the Divine Mystery card is real, and it is pretty much unanswerable (if you can refute, please do, I'd be very interested to see how). The only reason I don't like it for debate/discussion is that it is unanswerable. It seems that it is most appropriate (perhaps only appropriate) in an individual context. I use it a lot on things which I'm simply unable to know. Enjoy.

Just because a subjective individual does not know or understand something does not mean it is a mystery or unknowable. We can know truth with certainty, but not necessarily exhaustively (what we know is true, but we do not know every fact there is to know).

Mutually exclusive, illogical, absurd, contradictory things are not a mystery. Some concepts are simply wrong, whether we understand it or not.

God creating a rock so heavy He cannot lift it is not an unanswerable concept or true, but a mystery. This dumb question is an absurdity. We can refute the logic or lack thereof.

Likewise, logically/philosophically/biblically, the exhaustive foreknowledge of future free will contingencies is an absurdity or logical contradiction. We do not label the idea as a mystery or unknowable. Rather, we refute the concept as a cogent explanation for the relationship between sovereignty and free will. Calvinists also wrongly understand sovereignty as meticulous rather than providential control. They also assume that God predestines all things, because He predestines some things.

Open Theism and its view of a partially open future resolves the 'mystery' of sovereignty vs free will.

Likewise, it is wrong to shrug our shoulders and say the Trinity is a mystery. A mystery is something hidden, not absurd. God has revealed His triune nature. We can understand specific truths about the Godhead, without understanding exhaustively all the nuances of the Trinity and its implications.

Mystery can become a cop out for lack of critical thinking and searching out the truth. Some things are a mystery ('hidden') because God has not revealed everything there is to know.

TULIP is problematic. We should not try to defend it as a 'mystery'. Rather, we should propose alternate views that are more biblical.

Your illustrations are straw men caricatures. They do not reflect the beliefs of thinking Calvinists nor Open Theists. There is also a variety of views within these broad categories, so it is simplistic to reduce them to a sentence or two.

ChristisKing said:

Christ is God in the flesh.

That's the teaching of the entire NT, here are just a few verses that prove that Jesus being the Christ means He was God in the flesh, pls let me know if you need more:

ROM 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

PHI 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
PHI 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
PHI 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

HEB 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
HEB 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
HEB 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

1TI 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1TI 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

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Great job... at proving absolutely nothing.:nono:

He's preaching to the choir.

Your illustrations are straw men caricatures. They do not reflect the beliefs of thinking Calvinists nor Open Theists. There is also a variety of views within these broad categories, so it is simplistic to reduce them to a sentence or two.

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Of course they were straw men caricatures, that was half the point. You did read the bottom of my post, right? Where I said it was supposed to be a little funny as well. I think you might have taken me a bit more seriously than I had intended.

Likewise, it is wrong to shrug our shoulders and say the Trinity is a mystery. A mystery is something hidden, not absurd. God has revealed His triune nature. We can understand specific truths about the Godhead, without understanding exhaustively all the nuances of the Trinity and its implications.

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I really hope you were using this an your own example, because otherwise we're on different threads. I haven't seen anyone mention the Trinity on this thread. You are wrong anyway, because the Trinity is undiscernable. Mystery (in a religious context, which is how I've been refering to it all along) is defined as that which cannot be known by reason alone, but must be revealed. And even though it has been revealed, it is still beyond human comprehension to understand how it works.

God creating a rock so heavy He cannot lift it is not an unanswerable concept or true, but a mystery. This dumb question is an absurdity. We can refute the logic or lack thereof.

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So which is it then, a mystery, or an absurdity? I certainly would say absurdity, but you seem to have said both.

Just because a subjective individual does not know or understand something does not mean it is a mystery or unknowable. We can know truth with certainty, but not necessarily exhaustively (what we know is true, but we do not know every fact there is to know).

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I agree with you, but I was refering to people in general, not any one person in specific. As such, I was refering to truth, and not subjective thoughts or opinion.

Mystery can become a cop out for lack of critical thinking and searching out the truth. Some things are a mystery ('hidden') because God has not revealed everything there is to know.

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Of course it's a cop out. I thought I had made clear that it was. Sorry if I hadn't. I never said it was a solution, or that it was true. I merely said that it was unanswerable. A certain Calvinist friend of mine uses it a lot. The mock conversation with the Calvinist in my post above is a simplification of a real conversation I had with him. And once he says, "It's for God's glory, and it's beyond us to know how," then there is nothing I can say. Because if I question further, he just repeats that it is beyond us to know (in other words, a mystery).

....more hopping.....

....more hopping.....

lighthouse said:

Great job... at proving absolutely nothing.:nono:

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It does prove one thing, I can hop down a bunny trail with the best 'em! :jump:

Hi everyone,

godrulz said:

Likewise, logically/philosophically/biblically, the exhaustive foreknowledge of future free will contingencies is an absurdity or logical contradiction.

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Then does God not know how he would respond, freely, in any completely described situation? Does God not know all the possibities of human decisions? And how he would freely respond to them?

Calvinists also wrongly understand sovereignty as meticulous rather than providential control. They also assume that God predestines all things, because He predestines some things.

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Not this Calvinist!

Open Theism and its view of a partially open future resolves the 'mystery' of sovereignty vs free will.

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By discounting providential control! As in the warfare worldview, where indeed all things may not work out together for good, God's obedient followers can be harmed, in ways where the harm cannot be undone, or turned to good.

God is now minimizing evil's effects, instead of destroying the devil's work (1 John 1:8).

Blessings,
Lee

lee_merrill said:

Hi everyone,


Then does God not know how he would respond, freely, in any completely described situation? Does God not know all the possibities of human decisions? And how he would freely respond to them?


Blessings,
Lee

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This sounds like Molinism or 'middle knowledge' (William Lane Craig and others). Boyd is a neo-Molinist.

God is omnicompetent and can respond to any contingency on a moment's notice. He does not need to contemplate all the scenarios for trillions of years to respond effectively. He knows consequences and possibilities. Accidents and choices by men can change moment by moment. God can respond in real time without having to have seen things in advance.

The Cosmic Chessmaster handles billions of contingencies as they unfold. Like a human chessmaster, He can play any move in response to any move and win the game by His superiority. He may normatively respond one way, but He is sovereign and can respond with freedom. e.g. He may or may not respond supernaturally to a given situation. He is free to decide in advance or at the moment the new contingency unfolds.

lee_merrill said:

Hi everyone,

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Where have you been?!

Then does God not know how he would respond, freely, in any completely described situation? Does God not know all the possibities of human decisions? And how he would freely respond to them?

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Wrong. I am an open theist, and I know God knows how He would respond in any given situation. And God knows all possibilities, of all things.

Not this Calvinist!

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So, how much of a Calvinist are you?

By discounting providential control! As in the warfare worldview, where indeed all things may not work out together for good, God's obedient followers can be harmed, in ways where the harm cannot be undone, or turned to good.

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Who believes that God can not turn anything for good?

Hi everyone,

Lee: Then does God not know how he would respond, freely, in any completely described situation?

Godrulz: The Cosmic Chessmaster handles billions of contingencies as they unfold. Like a human chessmaster, He can play any move in response to any move and win the game by His superiority.

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Then God doesn’t know all there is to know about himself! How he would choose in a given situation, isn’t this a fact about God, in the present?

Lighthouse: Where have you been?!

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Over at Theology Web, and Infidels.org, mostly. And playing my new electronic keyboard! ‘Til 1 AM in the morning. It’s kind of wild, I haven’t touched a piano in several years, yet now I can play passages that I couldn’t play before, it seems I made progress! Now that I am practicing, I suppose I will lose ground?

So, how much of a Calvinist are you?

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80%! I spell my TULIP without the “L”. And I don’t believe God makes all decisions, I believe God’s children can really choose:

1Co 9:1 Am I not free?

Who believes that God can not turn anything for good?

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Greg Boyd? Who speaks of God working to minimize evil results, which implies some actual evil result may not be reduced to zero, for God’s children.

Blessings,
Lee

lee_merrill said:

Hi everyone,



Greg Boyd? Who speaks of God working to minimize evil results, which implies some actual evil result may not be reduced to zero, for God’s children.

Blessings,
Lee

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Open Theists have different views among themselves.

The heinous evil of a Christian parent's baby being raped and murdered cannot be reduced to zero evil. The child goes to heaven, but it does not undo the evil brutality and loss. God punishes the evildoer, but cannot reverse the actual evil and its consequences. He comforts the parents and gives them the big picture, but it still does not reduce the evil to zero.

DTS teaches 4 point Calvinism. Calvin also denied a limited atonement (though the L makes TULIP more consistent). If grace is irresistible and perseverance unconditional, then you cannot claim libertarian free will.

Hi Godrulz,

godrulz said:

The heinous evil of a Christian parent's baby being raped and murdered cannot be reduced to zero evil. The child goes to heaven, but it does not undo the evil brutality and loss. God punishes the evildoer, but cannot reverse the actual evil and its consequences. He comforts the parents and gives them the big picture, but it still does not reduce the evil to zero.

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But then Jesus failed…

1 John 3:8 The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work.

And we cannot be super-conquering, present tense, continually, through him who loved us. But Paul says not just that we can be, but that we are.

Even the worst evil can be reduced to zero, indeed, it can be, as in the cross, and for those who love God, it will be...

Psalm 56:10-11 In God, whose word I praise, in the Lord, whose word I praise-- in God I trust; I will not be afraid. What can man do to me?

If grace is irresistible and perseverance unconditional, then you cannot claim libertarian free will.

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Do you mean by libertarian free will the ability to make any logically possible choice? Then how about saints in heaven? Are they less human?

Blessings,
Lee

lee_merrill said:

Hi Godrulz,


But then Jesus failed…

1 John 3:8 The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work.

And we cannot be super-conquering, present tense, continually, through him who loved us. But Paul says not just that we can be, but that we are.

Even the worst evil can be reduced to zero, indeed, it can be, as in the cross, and for those who love God, it will be...

Psalm 56:10-11 In God, whose word I praise, in the Lord, whose word I praise-- in God I trust; I will not be afraid. What can man do to me?


Do you mean by libertarian free will the ability to make any logically possible choice? Then how about saints in heaven? Are they less human?

Blessings,
Lee

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The cross ASSURED that the victory would be achieved.

After the millennium, the victory will be ACHIEVED with Satan and evil cast in the lake of fire forever.

In between the cross and the consummation is a period of cosmic spiritual warfare with casualties. It does not mean Jesus has failed or the cross is ineffective.

cf. WW II D-Day and VE-Day. Between the assurance of the victory and the achievement of the victory the war was waged and there were still casualties.

The fact that millions of Jews were killed is unmitigated evil. It does not mean the cross was a failure. It means that the Kingdom (rule of God) is now, but not yet. Jesus did destroy the devil's work by making redemption possible. He also healed the sick and cast out demons. Not every person was healed. Not every possessed person was freed. Not every person is saved from the lake of fire. The devil sometimes still has sway in lives. In the future, he will be completely banished. So, we have the timing of the defeat. He was neutered at Calvary, but will only be banished at the Consummation. In the mean time, he is loose on a leash and still wreaks havoc. Do you not read the newspaper?

It is unreasonable to say that my example of the dead baby is zero evil. In the end, justice will occur. In the mean time, we have a dead child, a grieving family, and hopefully a perpetrator in prison on earth and then in hell at death. Some people even get away with murder in this life and the evil is not resolved. In eternity, the books will be settled, but not always now (see Psalms).

godrulz said:

The cross ASSURED that the victory would be achieved.

After the millennium, the victory will be ACHIEVED with Satan and evil cast in the lake of fire forever.

In between the cross and the consummation is a period of cosmic spiritual warfare with casualties. It does not mean Jesus has failed or the cross is ineffective.

cf. WW II D-Day and VE-Day. Between the assurance of the victory and the achievement of the victory the war was waged and there were still casualties.

The fact that millions of Jews were killed is unmitigated evil. It does not mean the cross was a failure. It means that the Kingdom (rule of God) is now, but not yet. Jesus did destroy the devil's work by making redemption possible. He also healed the sick and cast out demons. Not every person was healed. Not every possessed person was freed. Not every person is saved from the lake of fire. The devil sometimes still has sway in lives. In the future, he will be completely banished. So, we have the timing of the defeat. He was neutered at Calvary, but will only be banished at the Consummation. In the mean time, he is loose on a leash and still wreaks havoc. Do you not read the newspaper?

It is unreasonable to say that my example of the dead baby is zero evil. In the end, justice will occur. In the mean time, we have a dead child, a grieving family, and hopefully a perpetrator in prison on earth and then in hell at death. Some people even get away with murder in this life and the evil is not resolved. In eternity, the books will be settled, but not always now (see Psalms).

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I'm not disputing your point at all, but rather your example. During World War II, there was little in the way of assured victory until the last month or two before VE-Day. If you wanted to point to a turning point, probably go with the Battle of the Bulge. D-Day was a wild experiment that went very well, but it was by no means assured to do as well as it did.

lee_merrill said:

Greg Boyd? Who speaks of God working to minimize evil results, which implies some actual evil result may not be reduced to zero, for God’s children.

Blessings,
Lee

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God does not immediately turn everything around for good. And some effects of wrong are wrong. The good comes eventually, but not always immediately.

lighthouse said:

God does not immediately turn everything around for good. And some effects of wrong are wrong. The good comes eventually, but not always immediately.

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Exactly. If God made the effects of evil of zero effect for believers (this is contrary to reality...we are not immune to some things in a fallen world), it would blur the distinction between good and evil. It would make evil not real, but an illusion (cf. Christian Science).

Hi everyone,

Godrulz: After the millennium, the victory will be ACHIEVED with Satan and evil cast in the lake of fire forever.

In between the cross and the consummation is a period of cosmic spiritual warfare with casualties. It does not mean Jesus has failed or the cross is ineffective.

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The point was about all evil works of the devil being destroyed, though. Yes, he will be cast in the lake of fire, but can there be real harm for God's children? If so, Jesus will not destroy the works of the devil, though Jesus came to do that, and we must say he failed in this.

Godrulz: The fact that millions of Jews were killed is unmitigated evil.

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Real harm can come to those who do not take refuge in God, and who do not know his Son.

Jesus did destroy the devil's work by making redemption possible.

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A possibility does not destroy the devil's work, though.

It is unreasonable to say that my example of the dead baby is zero evil.

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That is evil indeed, and for those who trust God, the warfare worldview indeed lacks consolation here, that is real tragedy.

Ecclesiastes 4:1 Again I looked and saw all the oppression that was taking place under the sun: I saw the tears of the oppressed--and they have no comforter; power was on the side of their oppressors--and they have no comforter.

Jeremiah 31:15 This is what the Lord says: "A voice is heard in Ramah, mourning and great weeping, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because her children are no more."

But we have promises of overcoming completely even the worst evil:

Psalm 91:9-10 If you make the Most High your dwelling-- even the Lord, who is my refuge--then no harm will befall you, no disaster will come near your tent.

Proverbs 12:21 No harm befalls the righteous, but the wicked have their fill of trouble.

Isaiah 43:2 When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; And through the rivers, they will not overflow you. When you walk through the fire, you will not be scorched, Nor will the flame burn you

Luke 21:18 But not a hair of your head will perish.

Godrulz: In eternity, the books will be settled, but not always now (see Psalms).

Lighthouse: God does not immediately turn everything around for good. And some effects of wrong are wrong. The good comes eventually, but not always immediately.

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Yes, I agree, the good results for those who trust God are not all immediate.

Hebrews 11:35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection.

Godrulz: If God made the effects of evil of zero effect for believers (this is contrary to reality...we are not immune to some things in a fallen world), it would blur the distinction between good and evil. It would make evil not real, but an illusion (cf. Christian Science).

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But how does overcoming evil deeds completely make evil not be real? We are indeed not immune to pain, but for those who trust and obey God, they cannot be harmed.

Psalm 121:5-8 The Lord watches over you-- the Lord is your shade at your right hand; the sun will not harm you by day, nor the moon by night. The Lord will keep you from all harm-- he will watch over your life; the Lord will watch over your coming and going both now and forevermore.

Blessings,
Lee

Ostrich syndrome? Christian Science? Believers can and do get cancer and die. Believers get murdered or hit by drunk drivers. Missionaries get raped. Jesus said we would have trials, troubles, and persecutions in this world. Eternity will bring justice and peace and no more tears. In the interim, we may be subject to aspects of the fallen world. We do not grieve as those with no hope. The key is that God is with us and will raise us up, no matter what happens to a believer. He gives peace, builds character, but does not always supernaturally deliver us in the here and now. Our hope is future and now, but this does not mean we have immunity from things unbelievers face. We just have someone carrying us through the valley of the shadow of death (Ps. 23). Martyrdom/blood of the saints is the seed of the persecuted church and causes growth. This does not negate the evil or murder, but God is redemptive and brings good out of bad when possible. The warfare model is what Jesus operated under, not the blueprint model of determinism.

lee-
Not all evil is a work of the devil.:nono: