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Thread: For Sincere Inquisitors ONLY: MAD Explained

  1. #1516
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaulToPaul View Post
    Gospel of Christ- 1 Cor 15:1-4 (KJV), to Jews and Gentiles in the promises. Preached during Acts.
    Let us start here. Do you believe that the same gospel was preached to the Jews and to the Gentiles during the Acts period?

    That certainly seems to be what you are saying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Let us start here. Do you believe that the same gospel was preached to the Jews and to the Gentiles during the Acts period?

    That certainly seems to be what you are saying.
    Paul preached the same gospel to the Jews and Greeks that he preached to, yes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    I find that is off. Gentiles had access to Israel's promises through Israel, just as they will in the Millennium.

    What did the Lord remind the Gentile woman of in Mark 7? "Let the children first be filled."

    Matthew 15 relates she acknowledged Him as David's son.

    In verse 15 He heals her daughter based on her faith.

    What was healing a sign of? The forgiveness of sins, Matt. 9:6.

    Its why the issue that took place in Acts 10, 11, and 15; and at the UNcircumcision churches at Galatia, of the two kinds that were in Galatia, Acts 16; Rom. 15.

    Gentiles had always had access to God - but through circumcision and the Law.

    There was no hidden mystery there.

    As for the Blood; it was not preached before Paul not because the Lord had not re-emphasized what His sufferings would accomplish for Israel, but because God was not through proving Israel under sin until about Acts 7.

    This is the issue in Romans 2, 3, 9-11.
    Danoh, the Great, can you elaborate which mystery I listed that you take exception to? I'm not following completely. thanks
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaulToPaul View Post
    Paul preached the same gospel to the Jews and Greeks that he preached to, yes.
    Please show me just one instance where Paul preached the gospel of grace to the Jews during the Acts period?

    Here is what Paul was preaching to the Jews during the Acts period:

    "And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God...proving that this is the very Christ" (Acts 9:20,22).

    That was the same gospel which Paul continued to preach to the Jews:

    "And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ" (Acts17:2,30).

    That is the same gospel message which Peter preached to the Jews during the Acts period and that is the same gospel message which Apollos preached to them during the Acts period.

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    Silver Member SaulToPaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Please show me just one instance where Paul preached the gospel of grace to the Jews during the Acts period?

    Here is what Paul was preaching to the Jews during the Acts period:

    "And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God...proving that this is the very Christ" (Acts 9:20,22).

    That was the same gospel which Paul continued to preach to the Jews:

    "And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ" (Acts17:2,30).

    That is the same gospel message which Peter preached to the Jews during the Acts period and that is the same gospel message which Apollos preached to them during the Acts period.
    There is no "gospel of grace", but the "gospel of Christ" was preached here. Once again, the "gospel of the grace of God" is the "gospel of Christ" with an expanded reach.



    Acts 13:1 Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.

    Acts 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

    Acts 13:3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.

    Acts 13:4 So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.

    Acts 13:5 And when they were at Salamis, they preached the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews: and they had also John to their minister.

    Acts 13:6 And when they had gone through the isle unto Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew, whose name was Barjesus:

    Acts 13:7 Which was with the deputy of the country, Sergius Paulus, a prudent man; who called for Barnabas and Saul, and desired to hear the word of God.

    Acts 13:8 But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith.

    Acts 13:9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him,

    Acts 13:10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?

    Acts 13:11 And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.

    Acts 13:12 Then the deputy, when he saw what was done, believed, being astonished at the doctrine of the Lord.

    Acts 13:13 Now when Paul and his company loosed from Paphos, they came to Perga in Pamphylia: and John departing from them returned to Jerusalem.

    Acts 13:14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.

    Acts 13:15 And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, Ye men and brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.

    Acts 13:16 Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience.

    Acts 13:17 The God of this people of Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they dwelt as strangers in the land of Egypt, and with an high arm brought he them out of it.

    Acts 13:18 And about the time of forty years suffered he their manners in the wilderness.

    Acts 13:19 And when he had destroyed seven nations in the land of Chanaan, he divided their land to them by lot.

    Acts 13:20 And after that he gave unto them judges about the space of four hundred and fifty years, until Samuel the prophet.

    Acts 13:21 And afterward they desired a king: and God gave unto them Saul the son of Cis, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, by the space of forty years.

    Acts 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.

    Acts 13:23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

    Acts 13:24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.

    Acts 13:25 And as John fulfilled his course, he said, Whom think ye that I am? I am not he. But, behold, there cometh one after me, whose shoes of his feet I am not worthy to loose.

    Acts 13:26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.

    Acts 13:27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.

    Acts 13:28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain.

    Acts 13:29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.

    Acts 13:30 But God raised him from the dead:

    Acts 13:31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.

    Acts 13:32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,

    Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

    Acts 13:34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

    Acts 13:35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

    Acts 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

    Acts 13:37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.

    Acts 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

    Acts 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

    Acts 13:40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;

    Acts 13:41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.

    Acts 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

    Acts 13:43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

    Acts 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

    Acts 13:45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.

    Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

    Acts 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

    Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

    Acts 13:49 And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.

    Acts 13:50 But the Jews stirred up the devout and honourable women, and the chief men of the city, and raised persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them out of their coasts.

    Acts 13:51 But they shook off the dust of their feet against them, and came unto Iconium.

    Acts 13:52 And the disciples were filled with joy, and with the Holy Ghost.
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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaulToPaul View Post
    There is no "gospel of grace", but the "gospel of Christ" was preached here. Once again, the "gospel of the grace of God" is the "gospel of Christ" with an expanded reach.
    Here is what Paul said in his defense when he was charged with being a "mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world" (Acts 24:5):

    "Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come: That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles" (Acts 26:22).

    Paul's testimony to the Jews was based on nothing but what was foretold in the OT-"what the prophets and Moses did say should come."

    However, the gospel of grace which Paul preached was a mystery truth and not revealed in the OT:

    "But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory" (1 Cor.2:7-8).

    If the princes of the world knew that believers are JUSTIFIED FREELY BY HIS GRACE THROUGH THE REDEMPTION THAT IS IN CHRIST JESUS then they would never have crucified Him. So the gospel which Paul preached to the Jews was based on nothing but what the OT foretold.

    The gospel Paul preached to the Gentiles was based on mystery truths, truths which were not revealed in the OT:

    "Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past..." (Ro.16:25).

    Acts 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
    The OT foretold of this justification:

    "He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities" (Isa.53:11).

    But what was kept secret is how the Lord Jesus could justify many and that is by "the redemption that is in Christ Jesus."

    So the gospel which Paul preached to the Jews was based on nothing but what the OT foretold. The gospel he preached to the Gentiles was based on things not revealed in the OT.

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    I read this:

    "Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come: That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles" (Acts 26:22).

    And I get what I get from all its other like passages - that Paul is asserting he is not saying anything in contradiction concerning the resurrection of Christ; His light unto the people and to the Gentiles that is a contradiction to what was prophesied.

    Mystery truth? Nope.

    Consider, for example, Simeon's words in Luke 1:

    29. Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:
    30. For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,
    31. Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;
    32. A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    His light unto the people and to the Gentiles that is a contradiction to what was prophesied.
    In what way is it a contradiction to what was foretold at Isaiah 49:6and 60:1-3?

    Consider, for example, Simeon's words in Luke 1:
    Those words are found at Luke 2.

    And I get what I get from all its other like passages - that Paul is asserting he is not saying anything in contradiction concerning the resurrection of Christ.
    Paul is saying that He preached nothing which was not found in the OT:

    "saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    In what way is it a contradiction to what was foretold at Isaiah 49:6and 60:1-3?
    Point is, Paul was asserting that what he was relating was not in contradiction - whether through Israel's rise first, or directly during Israel's fall; the foundation of both is Christ: Romans 15:8-12, in contrast to Romans 15:13-21, in light of Eph. 2:20's "built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;"

    Those words are found at Luke 2.
    Just getting you away from the Greek and back to the Bible

    Nah, just messin; thanks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    Point is, Paul was asserting that what he was relating was not in contradiction
    He was saying much more than that. He was saying that He preached no other things than those which the prophets and Moses foretold:

    "saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    He was saying much more than that. He was saying that He preached no other things than those which the prophets and Moses foretold:

    "saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come."
    Which was what?

    Acts 26:

    6. And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God, unto our fathers:
    7. Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.
    8. Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead?
    9. I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth.

    That's it - that is the foundation of both hopes - the resurrected Christ.

    2 Timothy 2:

    7. Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.
    8. Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
    9. Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.

    That's it - that is the foundation of both hopes - the resurrected Christ.

    He is arguing for that; not for its details in either aspect of God's Two-Fold Purpose: Prophecy and Mystery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SaulToPaul View Post
    Danoh, the Great, can you elaborate which mystery I listed that you take exception to? I'm not following completely. thanks
    The mystery of Christ is the Church, Eph. 5. It is Christ in you, the hope of glory, Col. 1:27. It is the mystery of Godliness, 1 Timothy 3:16.

    This Mystery of our glory in the Lord of glory was ordained before the world unto our glory and hid in God, for had they known this New Creature would be made possible at the Cross, those fallen princes of this age we will one day replace as the fulness of Him that filleth all thrones, dominions, and principalities in those high places, at our Mystery catching up, 1 Cor. 15, 1 Tim. 3; Eph. 6; they would not have crucified the Lord of this Mystery's glory, 1 Cor. 2; Ephesians 1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    Which was what?
    The gospel which Paul preached to the Jews was promised beforehand by the OT prophets:

    "Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures, concerning His Son..." (Ro.1:1).

    The gospel which Paul preached to the Gentiles was one which was not revealed by the OT prophets but instead was kept secret:

    "Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past" (Ro.16:25).

    Two different gospels, one based on prophecy and the other kept secret.

    And Paul himself supports this by saying that to the Jews he preached no other things than those which the prophets and Moses foretold:

    "saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come." (Acts 26:22).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    And Paul himself supports this by saying that to the Jews he preached no other things than those which the prophets and Moses foretold:

    "saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come." (Acts 26:22).
    I think he is talking about the charges that were being made that he spoke against the law of Moses, and against the temple and the Jews. You seem to be reading more into it that I can see. He was stating he hadn't contradicted anything the Prophets and Moses had said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    I think he is talking about the charges that were being made that he spoke against the law of Moses, and against the temple and the Jews. You seem to be reading more into it that I can see. He was stating he hadn't contradicted anything the Prophets and Moses had said.
    That is your opinion but I see nothing in Paul's words which even hint that your view is correct.

    Rome allowed Judaism as a religio licita (a legal religion) but they would not allow those of that religion to depart from the teaching of Judaism. By using the term the "sect of the Nazarenes" the lawyer tried to make Paul's faith appear to be bizarre.

    And in defense of this charge Paul made it plain that everything which he taught could be found in the OT:

    "saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come." (Acts 26:22).

    So he could not be charged with departing from Judaism.

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