The Trinity

The Trinity


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Squeaky

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Don't forget anyone who says they know Jesus and don't keep His commandments is a liar. His commandments are the works we must do.

[Jhn 7:29
29 "But I know Him, for I am from Him, and He sent Me."
[Jhn 8:55
55 "Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, 'I do not know Him,' I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word.
[1Jo 2:4
4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
 

JudgeRightly

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So you say Jesus was not a man, nor the son of God.
Jesus was not a man for eternity past. He became a man when the Holy Spirit fertilised Mary's egg. That transition does not mean He was not the Son of God.

Now, and for the rest of eternity, Jesus is BOTH the Son of God AND the Son of Man, where prior to his incarnation, He was only the Son of God.
 

JudgeRightly

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Jesus was dead so He could not raise Himself.

Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
So, basically you're calling a liar by saying that Jesus could NOT raise Himself, when He clearly stated that He could?

So the Jews answered and said to Him, “What sign do You show to us, since You do these things?”Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”But He was speaking of the temple of His body.Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said. - John 2:18-22 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John2:18-22&version=NKJV
 

JudgeRightly

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You believe the word God spoke was the second person of a trinity of Gods, one of which died.

LA
LA, there is more than one kind of death. There's physical death, the death of the body, and then there's spiritual death.

"Death" is just separation. Physical death is separation of our body and spirit, and spiritual death is separation from God.

God the Son died physically, not and spiritually. But He never stopped being God, and He most certainly did not cease to exist. Or what, do you think that Jesus was annihilated when He died and then was brought back into existence?

Because that's not what scriptures say.
 
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JudgeRightly

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Jesus is the firstborn over all creation.

All things were made through Jesus.

God made the plan for salvation to be through Jesus.

Jesus was given a Spiritual body, the glorious body that he had before the world began.

Adam and Eve were made through Jesus, and we must all be put back into Jesus, reconciled.

It is not so hard to understand.
So if the body Jesus has now is the EXACT SAME BODY that He had before his incarnation, why does it now have holes in it?

Now when she had said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, and did not know that it was Jesus.Jesus said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you seeking?” She, supposing Him to be the gardener, said to Him, “Sir, if You have carried Him away, tell me where You have laid Him, and I will take Him away.”Jesus said to her, “Mary!” She turned and said to Him, “Rabboni!” (which is to say, Teacher).Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’”Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that He had spoken these things to her.Then, the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, “Peace be with you.”When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. - John 20:14-20 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John20:14-20&version=NKJV

Now Thomas, called the Twin, one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came.The other disciples therefore said to him, “We have seen the Lord.” So he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, “Peace to you!”Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.”And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” - John 20:24-29 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John20:24-29&version=NKJV

Oh, wait, This is all irrelevant, because Jesus Himself says that His resurrected body is physical, not spiritual:

Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, “Peace to you.”But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit.And He said to them, “Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts?Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet.But while they still did not believe for joy, and marveled, He said to them, “Have you any food here?”So they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish and some honeycomb.And He took it and ate in their presence. - Luke 24:36-43 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke24:36-43&version=NKJV

Jesus was spirit before His incarnation. He didn't have a "body" so to speak. His current (to this very day) body is flesh and bone, but not like our bodies are.
 

JudgeRightly

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Christians have the Athanasian Creed, an historic document clearly defining the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

I will post a link in a bit.
GT likes it when people defend their beliefs in their own words and refuses to read anything that isn't posted here. Good luck getting her to read it.
 

JudgeRightly

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But the Father never has to grow or wax strong in spirit, regardless

The Father's relationship with the Son and with the Holy Spirit, and their own respective relationships, has been growing for all of eternity past. Or do you think God is stagnant?

This doesn't make sense to me. Can you attempt to further explain it to me with scripture please?

Thanks
 

popsthebuilder

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The Father's relationship with the Son and with the Holy Spirit, and their own respective relationships, has been growing for all of eternity past. Or do you think God is stagnant?
GOD is eternal and without change.

There is no need for a thing to grow if that thing is infinite; nor does it seem possible.
 

JudgeRightly

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GOD is eternal and without change.

That's a pagan Greek teaching. It does not come from the Bible. Unfortunately, much of the Church has adopted pagan teachings because of Augustine (who was greatly influenced by Plato's teaching).

God changes greatly throughout the Bible. He went from being just God to being God of all creation. He became a Creator. He went from being just the God of Creation to being the Savior of all mankind.

You should listen to this show from 2003 (start at 11m 35s). It gives plenty more examples of God changing:

There is no need for a thing to grow if that thing is infinite; nor does it seem possible.

Infinite != maximum
 

popsthebuilder

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Are the saved put in his body?!

Give more consideration when you debate others.
What?

What you said has little to do with existence being formed through the Spirit of GOD.

please try to actually connect your points as opposed to giving small pieces of scripture and acting as if your own conclusions are self explanatory.

How do you conclude that all that exists exists by the body of Jesus as opposed to the Spirit of GOD?

Why do you think the congregation of the faithful being synonymous with the body of Christ explains that all existence is formed from and subsisted by the body of Christ and not the spirit of Christ?
 

popsthebuilder

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That's a pagan Greek teaching. It does not come from the Bible. Unfortunately, much of the Church has adopted pagan teachings because of Augustine (who was greatly influenced by Plato's teaching).

God changes greatly throughout the Bible. He went from being just God to being God of all creation. He became a Creator. He went from being just the God of Creation to being the Savior of all mankind.

You should listen to this show from 2003 (start at 11m 35s). It gives plenty more examples of God changing:



Infinite != maximum
What?

What I speak of that I actually do know is from GOD.

Show me from scripture that GOD changed from being unable to create to being able to create.

Show scripturally that GOD is not omnipotent and omniscient.

Be sure that whatever scripture you provide denotes GOD almighty, not some lesser god you make up in your own conceits.

It is sad to see someone worship a thing that is not the One Creator GOD. or is sad to have people rebuke you by what they consider truth when it is bit the "knowledge of man"

Provide your scripture showing the limits of GOD. I await them eagerly. I must admit that it would be best for you to recant your statement.
 

popsthebuilder

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Jesus' Spirit IS the Holy Spirit.

All humans have a spirit within them,their own spirit.

Jesus' Spirit as a Man was the Spirit of God.

Jesus is God the Father with a body.
I see it similarly but am confused on how the spirit of GOD literally grew. Perhaps the amount of the Holy Spirit that resided in the temple (Jesus) grew; but to say that the Holy Spirit learned and grew in knowledge seems very wrong to me.
 

glorydaz

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I already gave the scriptures, but you refuse them; no different in how a person refuses Jesus is God after being shown scriptures.

Jesus said to His Father to GLORIFY HIM with the SAME GLORY he had before the world began.

So what happened after that? Jesus was given a resurrected Spiritual body.

He was speaking of the Glory of God (DEITY).....not His resurrected spiritual body of man (HUMANITY).

1 Cor. 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.​
 

JudgeRightly

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What?

What I speak of that I actually do know is from GOD.

"God does not change" comes from the pagan Greek philosophers like Plato and Aristotle.

Show me from scripture that GOD changed from being unable to create to being able to create.

I did not say He was unable to create. I said He went from not being the Creator to creating all things. Please don't twist what I say.

Or do you think that God has always been creating things for eternity past? And after 6 days of creating (and even creating something new and different each day), God went from creating to resting, admiring His work on the 7th day.4

Show scripturally that GOD is not omnipotent and omniscient.

Are you defining omnipotent as having absolute power and omniscient to know everything past present and future?

Pops, are you a closet Calvinist?

Because that's essentially what Calvinists believe.

Be sure that whatever scripture you provide denotes GOD almighty, not some lesser god you make up in your own conceits.

I assure you, you and I are speaking of the God of the Bible.

It is sad to see someone worship a thing that is not the One Creator GOD. or is sad to have people rebuke you by what they consider truth when it is bit the "knowledge of man"

You say that as if implying that you're talking about me... I'm hurt :(

But in all seriousness, I'm not the one taking pagan ideas and applying them to the Bible. That would be you.

Provide your scripture showing the limits of GOD.

The only one limiting God here is you by saying God cannot change.

Oh, and by the way...

A perfect acorn can grow into a mighty oak tree.

Also...

These passages:

]For I am the Lord, I do not change; Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob. - Malachi 3:6 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Malachi3:6&version=NKJV

But You are the same, And Your years will have no end. - Psalm 102:27 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm102:27&version=NKJV

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. - Hebrews 13:8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews13:8&version=NKJV

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning. - James 1:17 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James1:17&version=NKJV

They all say this:

God's CHARACTER does not change.

We can rely on God to not turn away from us, that He will never become evil. We can rely upon God to remain Holy. We can be eternally confident in His goodness. His righteous character DOES NOT CHANGE.

But God Does change in other ways.

Yes. Yes He does.

Just read the Bible and you'll see that He does.

I await them eagerly. I must admit that it would be best for you to recant your statement.

Perhaps you could listen to the link I provided and save me from having to do a Bible study.

By the way, asking your opponent to concede a discussion doesn't work.

God changes greatly throughout the Bible. He went from being just God to being God of all creation. He became a Creator. He went from being just the God of Creation to being the Savior of all mankind.

You should listen to this show from 2003 (start at 11m 35s). It gives plenty more examples of God changing:

In addition to the above program, you should listen to this one (from 2007) as well.

No, I'm not going to do an entire Bible study in a single post. I'd probably get suspended from TOL for my post being too long.

Also, we should move this discussion to a new thread, as it's not discussing the topic of the thread, which is the Trinity.
 

popsthebuilder

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"God does not change" comes from the pagan Greek philosophers like Plato and Aristotle.



I did not say He was unable to create. I said He went from not being the Creator to creating all things. Please don't twist what I say.

Or do you think that God has always been creating things for eternity past? And after 6 days of creating (and even creating something new and different each day), God went from creating to resting, admiring His work on the 7th day.4



Are you defining omnipotent as having absolute power and omniscient to know everything past present and future?

Pops, are you a closet Calvinist?

Because that's essentially what Calvinists believe.



I assure you, you and I are speaking of the God of the Bible.



You say that as if implying that you're talking about me... I'm hurt :(

But in all seriousness, I'm not the one taking pagan ideas and applying them to the Bible. That would be you.



The only one limiting God here is you by saying God cannot change.

Oh, and by the way...

A perfect acorn can grow into a mighty oak tree.

Also...

These passages:

]For I am the Lord, I do not change; Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob. - Malachi 3:6 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Malachi3:6&version=NKJV

But You are the same, And Your years will have no end. - Psalm 102:27 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm102:27&version=NKJV

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. - Hebrews 13:8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews13:8&version=NKJV

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning. - James 1:17 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James1:17&version=NKJV

They all say this:

God's CHARACTER does not change.

We can rely on God to not turn away from us, that He will never become evil. We can rely upon God to remain Holy. We can be eternally confident in His goodness. His righteous character DOES NOT CHANGE.

But God Does change in other ways.

Yes. Yes He does.

Just read the Bible and you'll see that He does.



Perhaps you could listen to the link I provided and save me from having to do a Bible study.

By the way, asking your opponent to concede a discussion doesn't work.



In addition to the above program, you should listen to this one (from 2007) as well.

No, I'm not going to do an entire Bible study in a single post. I'd probably get suspended from TOL for my post being too long.

Also, we should move this discussion to a new thread, as it's not discussing the topic of the thread, which is the Trinity.
Couldn't help but notice you provided absolutely no verse saying GOD changes.

You didn't even use one mentioning repentance.


Good.


I encourage the Bible study for both our sakes and anyone else that things GOD changes or grows.

You mentioned how the character of GOD is without change....what sort of attribute would we be speaking of other than character?

I was asking for you to fold so you could save some face, but I'm ready when you are.

Unless you want to admit the verses you have already posted; in which case I suggest you try more; I'm still waiting.

And if you think GOD is with change then you indeed worship some other god than me, and my comment was directed towards you.

Please show me to be wrong spiritually; notwithstanding a link to someone else's work and ideas


One last thing;

Infinite is in two directions at very least.

Infinite is not maximum or minimum. It is without end in either direction if not any direction.

Stick to scripture. It is the only chance you have, though though that is no chance either; not to show that the One Creator GOD is limited.

GOD doesn't deceive.
 
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