What is the Gospel?

JudgeRightly

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No beginning and no end means “Infinite”.

Our created universe has a Beginning and an End... “Finite”.

Our Infinite Origin (God) can interact with our Finite universe...

However... Infinity denotes that God is beyond the finite or in simpler terms... God is before (discriptive word that is lacking in depth) all that is measurable by time.

Time is linear and cannot account for God having no beginning.

To bound God to time by anything other than “choice” is to say God had some form of “beginning”.

On a train track of negative infinity... an origin would be required for the train to arrive anywhere... if placed in a finite system that is measurable by “time”.

However...

Once it is understood that the Infinite exists apart from the finite and always has... it all fits.

You're arguing that God could not traverse an infinite past.

From http://kgov.com/God-crossed-an-actual-infinity-of-time-through-the-beginningless-past


Misconception 3: God cannot cross an actual infinity: (Send any comment to Bob@kgov.com.) God has existed through the "beginningless past" (Morriston, 2010, Faith and Philosophy, pp. 439-450 (see link on page)). Christian theologians who object to this typically do so by being inconsistent, and thus, their objection is easily neutralized, and then answered. For example, William Lane Craig denies that God has existed throughout time immemorial, infinitely into the past, because he claims that even God cannot cross an actual infinity. (Aristotle, for example, claimed that the [URL=http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=846325#post846325]infinite is never actual; he however, did not know God.) Yet while Craig doesn't admit it, he himself believes that God has crossed an actual infinity. His belief that God has exhaustive foreknowledge of a kingdom that never ends requires divine knowledge of an infinite future, with this knowledge comprised of actual thoughts in God's mind. (This would be like God having counted to infinity.) Further, because Craig happens to hold the untenable and rather grotesque belief that God knows every possible future, that philosophical claim requires God to cross an infinite number of actual infinities. Instead, in actuality, God has crossed the single infinity of the beginningless past. Using a typically unstated assumption, an argument against God's "beginningless past" insists that He could not have crossed an infinite past because regardless of how much time has actually passed, "infinity" would require passage of even more time to arrive at any given moment. The unstated assumption in this objection however is that it assumes its conclusion, namely, that this past period must have had a beginning (for this objection asserts that this past period is of finite duration). If there is a valid systematic theology against God crossing an actual infinity, it would not support a philosophical claim that contradicts its own system, and it will not merely assume its conclusion. Let's consider an analogy from geometry and then an excuse from mathematics. Using an analogy, not as a proof but as an illustration, a geometrical line is infinite in both directions, whereas a ray has a terminal point yet is infinite in one direction. For our analogy, the ray extends through eternity past and is terminated in God's present, which is where God lives (in the fullness of time, so to speak). Relatedly, perhaps there is an excuse for theologians who failed to understand all this, who lived prior to mathematician Georg Cantor (d. 1918), who taught the world that it was possible to form infinite sets greater than other infinite sets. So, if God had already existed for eternity past at the moment of creation (an infinite set of moments), by the time of the Incarnation, He had then existed for an even longer infinite set of moments. For, He must increase. (Prior to Cantor the world of mathematics never accepted the concept of greater infinity.) And finally, God put eternity into our hearts. Yet unlike God, our life is not endless in two directions but only in one, namely, into the future. So you are like a "ray" that begins at a point (of conception) and then proceeds forever (Eccl. 3:11). Therefore, our eternal soul provides for us a context in which we can develop a gut feel for what it means to live forever (throughout eternity future). Yet we lack the divine intestinal fortitude, so to speak, which we would need in order to relate to His beginningless past. Thus, by the Scriptural teachings regarding time (see above) and because time could not have been created (see above), therefore we teach that God's goings forth are from of old, from everlasting, from ancient times, the everlasting God who continues forever, from before the ages of the ages, He who is and who was and who is to come, who remains forever, the everlasting Father, whose years never end, from everlasting to everlasting, and of His kingdom there will be no end.

 

Evil.Eye.*{@}*

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You're arguing that God could not traverse an infinite past.

From http://kgov.com/God-crossed-an-actual-infinity-of-time-through-the-beginningless-past


Misconception 3: God cannot cross an actual infinity: (Send any comment to Bob@kgov.com.) God has existed through the "beginningless past" (Morriston, 2010, Faith and Philosophy, pp. 439-450 (see link on page)). Christian theologians who object to this typically do so by being inconsistent, and thus, their objection is easily neutralized, and then answered. For example, William Lane Craig denies that God has existed throughout time immemorial, infinitely into the past, because he claims that even God cannot cross an actual infinity. (Aristotle, for example, claimed that the [URL=http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=846325#post846325]infinite is never actual; he however, did not know God.) Yet while Craig doesn't admit it, he himself believes that God has crossed an actual infinity. His belief that God has exhaustive foreknowledge of a kingdom that never ends requires divine knowledge of an infinite future, with this knowledge comprised of actual thoughts in God's mind. (This would be like God having counted to infinity.) Further, because Craig happens to hold the untenable and rather grotesque belief that God knows every possible future, that philosophical claim requires God to cross an infinite number of actual infinities. Instead, in actuality, God has crossed the single infinity of the beginningless past. Using a typically unstated assumption, an argument against God's "beginningless past" insists that He could not have crossed an infinite past because regardless of how much time has actually passed, "infinity" would require passage of even more time to arrive at any given moment. The unstated assumption in this objection however is that it assumes its conclusion, namely, that this past period must have had a beginning (for this objection asserts that this past period is of finite duration). If there is a valid systematic theology against God crossing an actual infinity, it would not support a philosophical claim that contradicts its own system, and it will not merely assume its conclusion. Let's consider an analogy from geometry and then an excuse from mathematics. Using an analogy, not as a proof but as an illustration, a geometrical line is infinite in both directions, whereas a ray has a terminal point yet is infinite in one direction. For our analogy, the ray extends through eternity past and is terminated in God's present, which is where God lives (in the fullness of time, so to speak). Relatedly, perhaps there is an excuse for theologians who failed to understand all this, who lived prior to mathematician Georg Cantor (d. 1918), who taught the world that it was possible to form infinite sets greater than other infinite sets. So, if God had already existed for eternity past at the moment of creation (an infinite set of moments), by the time of the Incarnation, He had then existed for an even longer infinite set of moments. For, He must increase. (Prior to Cantor the world of mathematics never accepted the concept of greater infinity.) And finally, God put eternity into our hearts. Yet unlike God, our life is not endless in two directions but only in one, namely, into the future. So you are like a "ray" that begins at a point (of conception) and then proceeds forever (Eccl. 3:11). Therefore, our eternal soul provides for us a context in which we can develop a gut feel for what it means to live forever (throughout eternity future). Yet we lack the divine intestinal fortitude, so to speak, which we would need in order to relate to His beginningless past. Thus, by the Scriptural teachings regarding time (see above) and because time could not have been created (see above), therefore we teach that God's goings forth are from of old, from everlasting, from ancient times, the everlasting God who continues forever, from before the ages of the ages, He who is and who was and who is to come, who remains forever, the everlasting Father, whose years never end, from everlasting to everlasting, and of His kingdom there will be no end.


No... I’m arguing that He is Infinite... and all finite and relative to time is a result of Him.

Infinite and finite are two separate universes.

The Infinite can create the finite, but the finite cannot be local of the Infinite.

The Infinite May dwell and interact within the Infinite and even choose to relate in a finite fashion... but the full being of the Infinite exceeds and pours farrrrrrrr past the finite.

He’s within and outside of time.

To say Infinite is to denote no presence of time.

Count from 0 to negative infinity and see how that goes.
 

Evil.Eye.*{@}*

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No, that would be God's Untruth.

You are merely a mangy wolf slinking along the periphery of the camp.

God’s Truth is far less mangy and Ill mannered than I.

Okay... Bob Ross... I’m a mangy mutt. With scabs and rot. I’m sporting 3 legs, two teeth and a limp.

Make sure to put happy trees in the land scape.
 

JudgeRightly

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How can time go back forever? How old is God?

He:


is - and was - and is to come - Whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting - Forever and ever - The Ancient of Days - From before the ages of the ages - From ancient times - the everlasting God - He continues forever - From of old - Remains forever - Immortal - The Lord shall endure forever - Who lives forever - yesterday, today, and forever - God’s years - manifest in His own time - Everlasting Father - Alive forevermore - Always lives - Forever - Continually - God’s years never end - From everlasting to everlasting - From that time forward, even forever - And of His kingdom there will be no end.



All of those are verbatim quotes from scripture.

Once again, you are thinking in terms of the created universe and not the eternal God.

God does things in sequence.
 

Clete

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A more deeply shattering rebuttal has never been written anywhere.

#The Cynicism Police have been notified and I am in trouble.

My rebuttal was offered with the exact same amount of substance as your claim had.

It meant, "I don't care about your personal opinion. The fact is that her doctrine would not be in contradiction to anyone telling anyone else that Christ died for their sins."

You can believe otherwise if you want but if you do, you are wrong - period.

Clete
 

Evil.Eye.*{@}*

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Jesus is using Clete and other members of the body to do that....according to plan. And it's to save you from wrath so should not be avoided at all.

I believe certain people are wrathful and seek to justify their wrath towards other sinners by suiting up with excuses to abuse others.

I know. I was a fool that once did so and pray I don’t do it again.
 

JudgeRightly

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That is a figure of speech.

So if that's a figure of speech, what does it mean?

Do you think that you can count those days?

Nope. Not even if I had the rest of eternity to do it.

Scripture often condescends to a human perspective since its target audience is humans and it often uses anthropomorphism's in relation to God's interaction with man.

That is a red herring.

Red herring.
 

Evil.Eye.*{@}*

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My rebuttal was offered with the exact same amount of substance as your claim had.

It meant, "I don't care about your personal opinion. The fact is that her doctrine would not be in contradiction to anyone telling anyone else that Christ died for their sins."

You can believe otherwise if you want but if you do, you are wrong - period.

Clete

Another Clete Substantiated masterpiece.

[MENTION=490]Glory[/MENTION] ... add Clete’s magnum opus to your amazing tapestry of acrylic paints... the one with the mangy mutt that has three legs, two teeth and one eye... of me.
 

JudgeRightly

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1 Corinthians 2:11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God

Only God and Meshak know Meshak’s heart.
“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.Therefore by their fruits you will know them. - Matthew 7:15-20 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew7:15-20&version=NKJV

Meshak's fruits are out in the open for all to see.
 

Evil.Eye.*{@}*

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“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.Therefore by their fruits you will know them. - Matthew 7:15-20 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew7:15-20&version=NKJV

Meshak's fruits are out in the open for all to see.

If I speak with the tongue of Angels, Know all prophecy, give my body to be burned and understand all mysteries, but have not Love...

I am NO THING

Love is the solution to all humanity.

No systematic theology will do the trick or save a single soul. Only Love saves! Only Jesus saves...

Faith without Love my dear brother who may disavow me for saying this... is dead.
 

glorydaz

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It also would in no way contradict glorydaz' doctrine either.

I disagree.

You're wrong.

A more deeply shattering rebuttal has never been written anywhere.

#The Cynicism Police have been notified and I am in trouble.

Since it's MY doctrine being discussed here, I am forced to proclaim the winner.

The two FALSE ACCUSERS (Evil and Sonnet) are wrong, and the Truth Teller (Clete) is correct.

Thank you, Clete, for standing up to these two nincompoops. :thumb:
 

Evil.Eye.*{@}*

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Since it's MY doctrine being discussed here, I am forced to proclaim the winner.

The two FALSE ACCUSERS (Evil and Sonnet) are wrong, and the Truth Teller (Clete) is correct.

Thank you, Clete, for standing up to these two nincompoops. :thumb:

The persecution of Glorydaz on this thread has been egregious! Martyrdom has occurred.

It’s all about “WINNING” a theological debate... said Jesus... never

/Thread [MENTION=16283]Sonnet[/MENTION]

Glory has weighed in with her death knell...

The Gospel is about Doctrine and Winning Debates.
 

Tambora

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It is symbolic of His authority over everything.

Dan 7:9 (AKJV/PCE)
(7:9) ¶ I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment [was] white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne [was like] the fiery flame, [and] his wheels [as] burning fire.

The entire verse is symbolism.
Or ...... Ancient of days means has existed more days than any other.
Father of all.
Eldest of all.
We don't have to accept that your interpretation is the only option that can exist for the verse.
There are other options.


I realize we have kinda gone off topic from the thread title.
I wouldn't mind having a separate thread about anthropomorphism, because I believe folks take that notion to an extreme that it should have not gone to.
How does that sound, are you up for it?
Others may want to discuss it further also.
And we can throw in some of the "time" stuff there too.
 

Tambora

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Since it's MY doctrine being discussed here, I am forced to proclaim the winner.

The two FALSE ACCUSERS (Evil and Sonnet) are wrong, and the Truth Teller (Clete) is correct.

Thank you, Clete, for standing up to these two nincompoops. :thumb:
Clete sure is handy to have around!
And you too!
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
It’s all about “WINNING” a theological debate... said Jesus... never

/Thread

Glory has weighed in with her death knell...

The Gospel is about Doctrine and Winning Debates.

You're the one who started it, fool, and you carried on.

Now that I point out what YOU HAVE DONE you want to blame me?

You're just a joke that keeps on giving, aren't ya? :chuckle:
 
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