ARCHIVE: Zakath is Genuine!

Interesting conversation....spanking. I tend to lean towards Turbo's point of view and the scripture he cited. I spank my children when I feel it's appropriate and necessary. This isn't the only form of punishment I choose to use, but I do use it. I don't think any of us should rush to judge Mr. Enyart regardless of what the record is. Working in and around youth for the last 12 years, I can say I've seens tons of parents be crucified by the State and/or media for spankings which were obviously appropriate. Yes, I've also seen abuse. From my point of view, I see corporal punishment and abuse as two completely different things. It's been pretty obvious to me where a parent crossed the line. As I think Turbo pointed out, the biased liberal media has blurred the line. That's the problem. Spanking is an appropriate and biblical concept. The liberal media obviously doesn't think it is.

I don't think spanking is a science. I don't care what any parent says. I have attempted to spank in a way which is consistent with every time I have chosen to do it. In other words, I use the same spanking tool, I spank the same amount each time, and try to use the same amount of force. There have been occasions where I have left a mark. There have been many occasions where I didn't leave a mark. I remember one time where my son was refusing to sit still. In trying to hold him down, I temporarily lost control of my spanking tool and the swat came down wrong on his bottom causing him to have quite the bruise. I admit I felt bad a little bit but not really that much. I told him to sit still and he didn't. I tell you one thing; he doesn't move around anymore!

My point is that spanking is supposed to hurt. And like any form of discipline, it's not always going to go the way the parent and child wants. The key to any form of discipline is motivation or intent. I discipline my children because I love them and want them to learn. I want them to know right from wrong.

It's ridiculous for anybody to think that Mr. Enyart wanted to harm his child out of malice or viciousness. He was teaching his son right from wrong. That's what his motivation was. Come on people! Stop listening to the biased liberal media!

Julie, Turbo,
Agree with both of you on spanking. My wife and I have always been for it. I was spanked. I tell you, I have no fear or bad memories of it, but some of the "scariest" punishments I have gotten or been threatened with were a lot less violent, such as long groundings or losing a favorite toy or the cancellation of a family vacation.

But back to the point...Spanking is all good, but Bob Enyart crossed the line between Godly adminition and abuse. And the fierce devotion to him is a little creepy. Nothing I can do about it, you all follow who you like. I personally don't like to consistantly say I'm a follower of a man. People need to admit that Bob Enyart is not this untouchable, holy authority on God. The abusive punishment, along with the strange views on government, the hated radio show, and the harsh tones and stuff like that are enough to make me not want to follow the man.

1 Corinthians 1:10, 12-13 "Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the smae mind and in the same judgement. ... Now I say this, that each of you says, "I am of Paul," or "I am of Apollos," or "I am of Cephas," or "I am of Christ." Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?"
I follow Christ. I read the writings of John MacArthur, Charles Ryrie, Wayne Grudem, and others, but don't necessarily agree with all of it, because each man speaks truth and each man makes mistakes. Test it all according to scripture. And I never come on here and try to make everyone believe that any one of these men is this untouchable creature that can do no wrong. I never come on here saying I'm a follower of any of these men. And I won't be converted into an Enyart follower. Enyart has a much more questionable past than any of the men I mentioned, after he came to Christ! I read more about Enyart today, and I see he's done a lot of good, but I still question his motives and views on some things. Therefore, I just have a little trouble when people act like Bob Enyart is the source of absolute truth. That's all. I chose not to align myself with that. I can have that view.

Do the research for yourselves. I think is 5 day thing is absolutely chilling. That freaks me out, and I don't think Christian men need to be worrying about changing our government to put to death all the people that Enyart thinks should be executed. In my opinion, homosexuality is a sin, and people can turn from it. I had a friend in college who was saved and gave up homosexuality, and married a beautiful lady. So as you can see, I disagree and I have the right to.

sotk, I agree with coporal punishment

:SOTK: :up:

SOTK...Please do not think that I am opposed to no spanking at all. If a smack on the rear with the hand [as I don't advocate using anything else] is justified, after reasonable discussion on the matter and the innerrant behaviour is still prevalent, then so be it.
I also advocate taking away of priviledges, as a form of behaviour control. Also, a stern look and speaking of their name in a strong tone, that sends a clear message to the child that their behaviour is inappropriate can work just as much as a smack, in any circumsatance. Followed up with a discussion on why the look was given, makes it clear what is expected next time. A child can be trained to know what is expected from them right from the start, and it does not necesarily involve corporal punishment. I just cannot see Jesus smacking a little child...ever.
I agree with 'motivation and intent'...I motivated my children into doing what was expected of them out of a sense of love and respect for others, including their family. This has now manifested in two teenagers who have great respect for their parents, family, and others around them. The intent was to have children who behaved according to our familiy's rules of behaviour, out of a sense of love, and loyalty to our family's sense of values and moral behaviour within society.
I to go by scripture, but more so the scripture that Jesus gave in the NT...love beats the rod any day...but if love through words and affection are not enough, then the rod should only ever be the open hand on a buttock, and a matter of last resort.
Funnily enough...personally I only really classify myself as a parent and a Christian. And I see spanking, via the rod, as an OT Biblical concept, that Christ put Himself on the Cross to overcome. I believe that if we are going to pick one Biblical concept [of the OT law] as being a benchmark for our way of punishment or whatever today, that we must then apply every one of Gods biblical concepts from the OT...we cannot merely justify the use of one concept but then negate the rest. It's a fine line we walk, I believe, when we do that.
Peace.

Turbo said:

Are you accusing anyone here of worshipping Bob Enyart as an idol?

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Yes or no, The Edge?

The Edge said:

And the fierce devotion to him is a little creepy.

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Bob Enyart is a dear friend. He's my brother in Christ. And he's a man for whom I have great respect. He led me to the Lord and has taught me much about Him. And in the very post in which you accused erin of wrongly judging you, a fellow Christian whom you claim she does not know well enough to judge, you falsely accused a fellow Christian whom you know next to nothing about of something far worse. That makes you a hypocrite. And you admit that you did so to "discredit" him so that you could blow off the points he made in the article that erin linked. That may be most blatant ad hominem argument I have ever seen.

I have personally heard Bob Enyart's stepson say that he deserved his spanking, and that he learned to respect his mother as a result of it, and that he felt better about himself because of that.

If Cheryl objected to Bob's actions and philosophies regarding spanking, why do you suppose she married him and had three children with him?

And exactly how much blood do you think can be shed by five swats to the backside with a belt?

I don't defend my friends when they are wrong. I'm much more likely to rebuke that friend myself. But when a friend is wrongly accused of something vile, you'd better believe I will rush to his defense. And if you find that sort of behavior to be "creepy," then I aspire to be the biggest creep you will ever encounter!

Of course we'll defend our friends. And of course we'll defend them if we subscribe to the same teachings. The boy admittedf he benefitted from the spank? Of course, if it's all he ever knew. We don't know that for sure. But I did not accuse Bob Enyart. I reminded us all of some facts from his past that should make people question their devotion to him. If you can't handle that, then I cannot help you. Just as your sister in law, I stand firmly on what I said. You can't change that with anything you say. And I rebuked Erin a lot nicer than she ATTACKED me.

You are not going to change my mind Turbo. Neither you or any of Bob Enyart's people.

The Edge said:

But I did not accuse Bob Enyart.

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From you're previous post:

I reminded us all of some facts from his past that should make people question their devotion to him.

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Here we go again...

Turbo said:

Are you accusing anyone here of worshipping Bob Enyart as an idol?

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Yes or no, The Edge?

The Edge said:

And I rebuked Erin...

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You stated via private message that you think it's wrong to rebuke someone publicly without first going to them privately. Did you rebuke Erin privately before rebuking her on this thread?

...she ATTACKED me.

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Considering you said you forgave her and would stop talking about this, you sure talk about this a lot. :think:

Erin has a history of not responding to my private messages. That is why I addressed her publically. The nature of the incident required that. That is why I wrote it so carefully. Took me 5 hours.

We could go round and round on this forever. You are missing my point completely. No progress is going to be made. I'm not going to keep going round and round with you on this anymore. I have other debates I'm involved in that are far more interesting and fun, and require actually digging into some good, solid theology.

julie21 said:

SOTK...Please do not think that I am opposed to no spanking at all. If a smack on the rear with the hand [as I don't advocate using anything else] is justified, after reasonable discussion on the matter and the innerrant behaviour is still prevalent, then so be it.
I also advocate taking away of priviledges, as a form of behaviour control. Also, a stern look and speaking of their name in a strong tone, that sends a clear message to the child that their behaviour is inappropriate can work just as much as a smack, in any circumsatance. Followed up with a discussion on why the look was given, makes it clear what is expected next time. A child can be trained to know what is expected from them right from the start, and it does not necesarily involve corporal punishment. I just cannot see Jesus smacking a little child...ever.
I agree with 'motivation and intent'...I motivated my children into doing what was expected of them out of a sense of love and respect for others, including their family. This has now manifested in two teenagers who have great respect for their parents, family, and others around them. The intent was to have children who behaved according to our familiy's rules of behaviour, out of a sense of love, and loyalty to our family's sense of values and moral behaviour within society.
I to go by scripture, but more so the scripture that Jesus gave in the NT...love beats the rod any day...but if love through words and affection are not enough, then the rod should only ever be the open hand on a buttock, and a matter of last resort.
Funnily enough...personally I only really classify myself as a parent and a Christian. And I see spanking, via the rod, as an OT Biblical concept, that Christ put Himself on the Cross to overcome. I believe that if we are going to pick one Biblical concept [of the OT law] as being a benchmark for our way of punishment or whatever today, that we must then apply every one of Gods biblical concepts from the OT...we cannot merely justify the use of one concept but then negate the rest. It's a fine line we walk, I believe, when we do that.
Peace.

Click to expand...

Julie,

I don't really have a problem with most of what you wrote. As I said, I have many different approaches to disciplining my children. Spanking is just one of them. I truly believe that if it wasn't for spanking, some of my other disciplining techniques wouldn't work as well. Since I have spanked, it usually only takes a stern look or a time out anymore to get my kids to stop their negative behavior and change. Also, spanking isn't an angry reaction as so many people assume. I have never spanked out of anger. I talk with my kids out of love before and after the spankings.

I think it's a mistake to not take to heed what the Old Testament states. Yes, as Christians, we aren't under the Law, however, the Old Testament is just not about the Law. The Old Testament is still God's Word. Heck, the Old Testament proves Jesus is who He said He was. The Old Testament is full of Godly truth and wisdom. I feel spanking is one such example of Godly wisdom. If you want to make the argument that spanking is not required of us as Christians, I could listen to that. As I said, I don't believe we are under the Law, but by the same token, I don't believe spanking was intended to be a part of the Law anyways. I feel the same way about many of the things which are spoken to us through Old Testament scripture. For example, my wife loves Proverbs 31. For her, there is a lot of Truth and Godly wisdom in Proverbs 31. Are the concepts and attitudes in Provers 31 necessarily required of her as a Christian? Well, not necessarily but she feels that they are because it's God's Word. I feel the same way about spanking and many other attitudes and concepts which are told to us through the Old Testament.

At any rate, I respect your feelings and views but disagree.

The Edge said:

We could go round and round on this forever. You are missing my point completely. No progress is going to be made. I'm not going to keep going round and round with you on this anymore. I have other debates I'm involved in that are far more interesting and fun, and require actually digging into some good, solid theology.

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Translation: I don't like getting pressed on the facts. It's much easier ringing the doorbell and then running like mad.

The Edge said:

You are not going to change my mind Turbo. Neither you or any of Bob Enyart's people.

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And now for something completely different...

Zakath, it would be perfectly accurate for someone to say of this thread, "Turbo hardened The Edge's heart." Yet I did not violate his free will to do so, and he could have reacted differently if he had wanted to.

The Edge said:

And the fierce devotion to him is a little creepy. Nothing I can do about it, you all follow who you like. I personally don't like to consistantly say I'm a follower of a man.

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Nah... if we were really "followers" of the man we would probably use his name as our TOL username and possibly even use a picture of him as our avatar. But that would be a little creepy don't you think?

Knight, yup.

Knight said:

Nah... if we were really "followers" of the man we would probably use his name as our TOL username and possibly even use a picture of him as our avatar. But that would be a little creepy don't you think?

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:darwinsm:
:darwinsm:
:darwinsm:

After a post like that last one I have this urge to shout a certain Ace Ventura line from Pet Detective.

And then if we were truly obsessed we would....

- Use his name as our TOL username
- Make our avatar a picture of him

AND.....

- Make our TOL signature a dedication to his greatness.

Now THAT would be..... REALLY creepy. :shocked:

May God help us if that ever happens.

The Edge said:

May God help us if that ever happens.

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:bang: :hammer: :kookoo:

Stop! Stop! You're killing me! :darwinsm::darwinsm::darwinsm::darwinsm::darwinsm::dead: