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Thread: about Bob's article on absolute or relative time

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    Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle Stripe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePhy View Post
    Technically you are correct. Though we casually speak of the moon orbiting the earth, in fact both the moon and the earth orbit around their common center of mass. With the moon being a significant sized body, that common center of mass is not at the center of the earth, but some distance towards the moon on the line from the earth’s center to the lunar center.

    But replacing the moon with an apple would just mean the common center of mass of the “earth-apple” system would be a billionth of an inch displaced from the earth’s center, instead of kilometers as it is now. In common parlance (and in scientific literature) the apple would still be orbiting the earth, and at the same distance and speed as the original moon did.
    If the Earth is no longer being pulled toward the Moon then its orbit around the moon will change.

    You said the tides would cease, how is that any different from an orbit ceasing?
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
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    I went here and it seems changing the mass of a planet will affect the orbit.
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
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    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    If the Earth is no longer being pulled toward the Moon then its orbit around the moon will change.

    You said the tides would cease, how is that any different from an orbit ceasing?
    The tides would cease because the apple in the moon’s orbit exerts such a miniscule gravitational attraction back on the earth (Newton’s 3rd law - action-reaction) that it is effectively undetectable. (Technically, a high apple tide might be a hundred thousandth of a human hair thickness in height.)

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    Resident Fiend Gerald's Avatar
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    Let me get this straight: there are folks on this thread claiming that time dilation doesn't occur?
    "If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker that came along would destroy civilization."

    --Weinberg's Second Law

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    He is going faster, yes. And his miles traveled are greater. What of it?
    And when he come back down the mountain and shakes hands with the guy at the bottom nothing strange happens right?
    Everyman is a voice in the dark.
    I II III IV

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePhy View Post
    The tides would cease because the apple in the moon’s orbit exerts such a miniscule gravitational attraction back on the earth (Newton’s 3rd law - action-reaction) that it is effectively undetectable. (Technically, a high apple tide might be a hundred thousandth of a human hair thickness in height.)
    How is the cessation of the tides any different from the cessation of an orbit?
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
    When the world is a monster
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    Kick the clay that holds the teeth in
    Throw your trolls out the door

    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
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    The idea of clocks being affected by time has nothing to do with time, but the gravitational pull on the clock mechanism for keeping time, if I remember the discussion.

    I don't have a problem with that if it can be shown that electronics are affected by gravity. We'd have to have some way of measuring time that is not mechanically affected by gravity, but maintains proper sequence measurement.

    The subject matter delves into whether God experiences progressive duration alone, as we do (denies foreknowledge etc.)
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
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    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    We'd have to have some way of measuring time that is not mechanically affected by gravity, but maintains proper sequence measurement.
    The problem is you're trying to measure something that does not exist. Time is not a physical thing that can be measured. It's an abstract concept that we use to make sense of the world. Our measurement of it will only ever be as accurate as the tools we can make.
    Last edited by Stripe; May 14th, 2009 at 07:10 AM.
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
    When the world is a monster
    Bad to swallow you whole
    Kick the clay that holds the teeth in
    Throw your trolls out the door

    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
    -Bob B.

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    Does Whatever A Light-House Can Lighthouse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fool View Post
    And when he come back down the mountain and shakes hands with the guy at the bottom nothing strange happens right?
    And you think that means time itself is relative?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    The problem is you're trying to measure something that does not exist. Time is not a physical thing that can be measured. It's an abstract concept that we use to make sense of the world. Our measurement of it will only ever be as accurate as the tools we can make.
    I agree with you here, but I think some are missing the point of inquiry: gravity affects mechanical clocks and that was the only premise I was addressing. In order to test that theory and rule out the possibility of time progressing differently, we'd have to make a mechanical clock that is unaffected by gravity. Even in that, we'd not rule out differing durations, we'd just rule out that a clock measured it.

    Hope that makes sense. Time is a complicated issue.

    Ever play with time and the international dateline with a pen and piece of scratch paper?
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    I agree with you here, but I think some are missing the point of inquiry: gravity affects mechanical clocks and that was the only premise I was addressing. In order to test that theory and rule out the possibility of time progressing differently, we'd have to make a mechanical clock that is unaffected by gravity. Even in that, we'd not rule out differing durations, we'd just rule out that a clock measured it.

    Hope that makes sense. Time is a complicated issue.
    I think it's pretty simple. We can measure duration, but we must be aware that our measurements will never be exactly the same on two different trials.

    Other than that time does not exist be be complicated.

    Ever play with time and the international dateline with a pen and piece of scratch paper?
    Can't say that I have. Must just be you
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
    When the world is a monster
    Bad to swallow you whole
    Kick the clay that holds the teeth in
    Throw your trolls out the door

    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
    -Bob B.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerald View Post
    Let me get this straight: there are folks on this thread claiming that time dilation doesn't occur?
    More to the point, folk on this thread are implying that gravity doesn't occur.

    If you wish to insist that time is being dilated then you must either:
    a) believe that gravity does not affect an atomic clock, or
    b) be able to account for exactly how gravity affects an atomic clock.

    Given that we do not have such information yet some assumptions need to be made. The popular assumption is that time is being dilated. A far more reasonable (and testable) idea is that gravity is affecting the clock.
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
    When the world is a monster
    Bad to swallow you whole
    Kick the clay that holds the teeth in
    Throw your trolls out the door

    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
    -Bob B.

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    Journeyman eveningsky339's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    Given that we do not have such information yet some assumptions need to be made. The popular assumption is that time is being dilated. A far more reasonable (and testable) idea is that gravity is affecting the clock.
    How is the assertion that clocks, not time, are affected by gravity more reasonable than vice versa? As I've mentioned before, Einsteinian physics are part of day-to-day life for an astronaut aboard the space shuttle. The shuttle always, always, always approaches the ISS for docking with its tail to the earth due to gravity-gradient torque. This is not Newtonian physics.

    A reasonable, alternative explanation for black holes has not, to my knowledge, been proposed. Einsteinian physics would rightly assert that a black hole is a severe bend in the fabric of space-time. The evidence to support the Einsteinian model can be found in the way stars "die": a super nova followed by a black hole.

    Einstein's theory of relativity is not floating around in the faraway land of Theory. It is a testable, practical, day-to-day observation.
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    Johnny's healthy marriage of time and sand...

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    Stripe, I'm done arguing relativity with you for now.
    Johnny, I want to thank you and others for the time and tutorials you have put toward this. If time could be stretched just a bit more, I'd have a better chance of carefully reading these objections and responding (some day soon I hope). But with recriminalizing the killing of unborn children and taking over the world...

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    ...you will not find any experimental support for the notion that emotions, thoughts, etc. are anything more than physiologic processes.
    Johnny, I just googled "enyart johnny entropy wife" and from the first-ranked reply and a couple of clicks later, I found that you wrote this:

    Johnny: "I've been married to my beautiful wife for nearly 2 years now..."

    Congratulations! And your commitment to her... it's based only on what? Minerals? Your love for her, it's based only on sub-atomic particles? Physics? Hopefully, you've pledged yourselves in marriage "till death do you part." But you think then, your care for her terminates?

    This reminds me of the girl in the Lansing MI college philosophy class on BEL's DVD: Get Out of the Matrix. She claimed something like, "It's been proven that love is exactly the same as eating chocolate." My ad hoc argument to expose her superficiality was something like, "Of all the men who have risked their lives to fight wars against invaders, you think these men would have decided to stand, and fight, and be hacked to pieces, if they were protecting a candy bar instead of their loved ones." You really think Johnny that there is no experimental evidence against the notion that love and hatred, charity and envy, have only physiological causes? Every national constitution is an experiment, every venture, every marriage. And you should be an expert on your own relationship experiment, and you should be able to testify that your love for your wife is based on more than the dust your body is made of.

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    Journeyman eveningsky339's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Enyart View Post
    This reminds me of the girl in the Lansing MI college philosophy class on BEL's DVD: Get Out of the Matrix. She claimed something like, "It's been proven that love is exactly the same as eating chocolate." My ad hoc argument to expose her superficiality was something like, "Of all the men who have risked their lives to fight wars against invaders, you think these men would have decided to stand, and fight, and be hacked to pieces, if they were protecting a candy bar instead of their loved ones." You really think Johnny that there is no experimental evidence against the notion that love and hatred, charity and envy, have only physiological causes? Every national constitution is an experiment, every venture, every marriage. And you should be an expert on your own relationship experiment, and you should be able to testify that your love for your wife is based on more than the dust your body is made of.
    Hi Bob,

    I actually agree with you.

    I think it's important to point out that the materialists have no way of determining cause and effect. Take, for example, studies of brain activity during prayer. Does the brain activity cause the religious experience, or does the religious experience cause the brain activity?

    Pending further evidence, I accept the latter hypothesis.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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    Larry Hardiman

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