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Thread: about Bob's article on absolute or relative time

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick M View Post
    So they are both wrong? I always knew that Tesla and Newton have more sense.

    So, lets go back to the begining, before the Clintonesque double talk started.
    Fun fact: If relativistic effects hadn't been taken into consideration, GPS would be offset by about 10 kilometers per day.
    "[Knut Hamsun] was very poor and weathered the deep winter of Chicago by wearing news paper under his clothes; his colleagues liked to touch him to make him crackle."

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    Which part of the Bible does relativity clash with?
    “There's nothing I like less than bad arguments for a view that I hold dear.” - Daniel Dennett

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePhy View Post
    Right, simple physics. Your choice of a falling apple and the moon orbiting the earth is instructive, since both of those are governed by exactly the same law. Put the apple at the moon’s orbital distance and speed, and it would follow the path the moon does.
    Would it? I don't think it would. Take the sun as a universal point of reference. The Earth-moon interplay would not remain as it is from the vantage point of the sun were the moon to be replaced with a standard apple, would it?

    As already shown, this is exactly what is not true between a gravity clock and a cesium clock. Put in a similar situation of reduced gravity, one will give results highly discordant with the other. That is exactly right.
    That's because the mechanical features of the two are remarkably different. And I'm not arguing with you. They will show disconcordant responses. But the experiment we are dealing with measures the effect on identical items. Two atomic clocks, one at sea level and one on a mountain, show different measures of time. This is because the different gravitational effects on the clocks.
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flipper View Post
    Um, no they aren't. Quite aside from the applied assumption that physicists are unable to calculate and therefore account for the effects of general relativity before doing the experiment, it has been also done with multiple clocks at the same altitude. If they're at the same altitude, perhaps you can explain how gravity affects them differently?
    I don't know what you're saying

    Furthermore, relativistic time dilation has been measured in particle accelerators where very concentrated beams of particles are accelerated to very high speeds across flat trajectories and exceed their observed decay rates at rest over relativistically predictable distances. I would like to to know how you could account for that with gravity.
    That's nice. We're not dealing with a change in velocity (although velocity and gravity are invariably linked). We're dealing with a change in gravity.

    First, explain the results above in terms of gravity.
    They likely aren't. I'm not questioning those experiments. I'm dealing with the one in the opening post.

    Second, why don't you explain to us in a bit more detail how gravity works on atomic clocks and what the key differences are between your explanation and that of general and special relativity?
    I don't know how gravity affects atomic clocks. My explanation (that Pastor Enyart made me aware of) is that gravity affects the clock. An explanation from relativity says that gravity stretches time for one clock and not the other.
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
    When the world is a monster
    Bad to swallow you whole
    Kick the clay that holds the teeth in
    Throw your trolls out the door

    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
    -Bob B.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post


    Not the issue at all. The issue is that it is not necessary for time to be relative in order for speed to be relative. Or for temperature to be relative. Or for anything else to be relative for that matter.
    One of Einstein’s teachers was Hermann Minkowski. Years after he had Einstein as a student, Einstein put forth his Special Theory of Relativity. Minkowski became active in understanding what that theory meant, and in 1908 said:
    …space by itself, and time by itself, are doomed to fade away into mere shadows, and only a kind of union of the two will preserve an independent reality.
    Ever since it has been recognized that changes in motion are fundamentally intertwined with corresponding changes in the flow of time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePhy View Post
    One of Einstein’s teachers was Hermann Minkowski. Years after he had Einstein as a student, Einstein put forth his Special Theory of Relativity. Minkowski became active in understanding what that theory meant, and in 1908 said: Ever since it has been recognized that changes in motion are fundamentally intertwined with corresponding changes in the flow of time.
    And Minkowski was just as wrong as Einstein.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    Which part of the Bible does relativity clash with?
    It clashes with good science.
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
    When the world is a monster
    Bad to swallow you whole
    Kick the clay that holds the teeth in
    Throw your trolls out the door

    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
    -Bob B.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    Would it? I don't think it would. Take the sun as a universal point of reference. The Earth-moon interplay would not remain as it is from the vantage point of the sun were the moon to be replaced with a standard apple, would it?
    I have no idea what you are getting at by referring to the sun as a point of reference.

    But anyway, replacing the moon with an apple would modify the earth-moon interface, simply because of the enormous change of mass in going from the moon to the apple. But that mass change is already accounted for the Newton’s laws, so as understood from the viewpoint of Newtonian physics, the same laws determine the apple’s orbit as determine the moon’s orbit. There would probably be two significant changes due to an apple moon – the tides would effectively cease, and barring one heck of a good telescope, you wouldn’t see the apple moon in orbit.
    That's because the mechanical features of the two are remarkably different. And I'm not arguing with you. They will show disconcordant responses. But the experiment we are dealing with measures the effect on identical items. Two atomic clocks, one at sea level and one on a mountain, show different measures of time. This is because the different gravitational effects on the clocks.
    Good, now we can drop the erroneous idea that there is a corresponding effect of changed gravity on the two types of clocks, and compare oranges with oranges.

    As dan1el noted, the GPS satellites have to compensate for general relativistic effects in their software. Every time you look at a GPS display, you are demonstrating the correctness of the Einstein concepts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    And Minkowski was just as wrong as Einstein.
    I take it that the sum of the substance you are going to offer is "I don't believe it"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePhy View Post
    I have no idea what you are getting at by referring to the sun as a point of reference.
    Just trying to throw you off guard

    But anyway, replacing the moon with an apple would modify the earth-moon interface, simply because of the enormous change of mass in going from the moon to the apple. But that mass change is already accounted for the Newton’s laws, so as understood from the viewpoint of Newtonian physics, the same laws determine the apple’s orbit as determine the moon’s orbit. There would probably be two significant changes due to an apple moon – the tides would effectively cease, and barring one heck of a good telescope, you wouldn’t see the apple moon in orbit.
    The apple would not retain the same orbit.

    Good, now we can drop the erroneous idea that there is a corresponding effect of changed gravity on the two types of clocks, and compare oranges with oranges.
    Why? Gravity affects atomic clocks just as it affects water clocks. Why would I drop that idea? The observations back it up nicely.

    As dan1el noted, the GPS satellites have to compensate for general relativistic effects in their software. Every time you look at a GPS display, you are demonstrating the correctness of the Einstein concepts.
    They have to compensate for gravity (and probably velocity).
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
    When the world is a monster
    Bad to swallow you whole
    Kick the clay that holds the teeth in
    Throw your trolls out the door

    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
    -Bob B.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    It clashes with good science.
    How the hell would you know?
    "[Knut Hamsun] was very poor and weathered the deep winter of Chicago by wearing news paper under his clothes; his colleagues liked to touch him to make him crackle."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    … The apple would not retain the same orbit.
    Don’t understand orbital mechanics very well, do you? Watch an astronaut working outside on a many-ton space station in orbit. When he gently lets a one-ounce tool loose it floats right along in the same orbit as the monstrous structure that it is now totally disconnected from.
    Why? Gravity affects atomic clocks just as it affects water clocks. Why would I drop that idea? The observations back it up nicely.
    I will admit that I really thought you understood the difference between the effects of gravity on the two dissimilar types of clocks. But alas, just like Huck Finn’s dad, I suspect the only thing that might keep you from regressing at the first opportunity (or getting dead drunk in the case of Huck’s dad) is a shotgun.
    They have to compensate for gravity (and probably velocity).
    The compensation is via relativistic equations, which include distortions in the flow of time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    The apple would not retain the same orbit.
    The gravitational force F between the Earth (mass M) and an orbiting mass m is given by
    F = G M m/r^2 = G' m.

    The acceleration of the orbiting mass is given by
    a = F/m = G' m/m = G'.

    As you can see, the orbiting object's motion isn't governed by its mass.
    "[Knut Hamsun] was very poor and weathered the deep winter of Chicago by wearing news paper under his clothes; his colleagues liked to touch him to make him crackle."

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePhy View Post
    I take it that the sum of the substance you are going to offer is "I don't believe it"?
    I certainly don't buy it. And not just because there's no proof. But anyone with an ounce of common sense can see how ridiculous the idea that time passes at different rates for different people, based on perspective is trash. The only thing that's relative is perception. Time doesn't change.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    I certainly don't buy it. And not just because there's no proof. But anyone with an ounce of common sense can see how ridiculous the idea that time passes at different rates for different people, based on perspective is trash. The only thing that's relative is perception. Time doesn't change.
    Where do you get the ridiculous idea that common sense should be trusted when examining how the universe works?
    "[Knut Hamsun] was very poor and weathered the deep winter of Chicago by wearing news paper under his clothes; his colleagues liked to touch him to make him crackle."

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