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Thread: about Bob's article on absolute or relative time

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    The change in gravity affected the clock. Much the same way as gravity would influence a water clock being carried up a mountain. Much the same way as a change in gravity affects everything of mass.
    A water clock depends for its functioning on the strength of gravity. Does a cesium clock? IOW, if you took a water clock and a cesium clock far out into interstellar space, would they be equally influenced by the reduction of gravity to almost zero?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePhy View Post
    A water clock depends for its functioning on the strength of gravity. Does a cesium clock? IOW, if you took a water clock and a cesium clock far out into interstellar space, would they be equally influenced by the reduction of gravity to almost zero?
    They would not be affected to the same degree because they rely on different mechanisms. But clearly both are affected by gravity. So, no, they would not both be reduced to "almost zero", but that does nothing to show that time is being dilated.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    I think Flipper has missed the fact that Einstein had ideas that Pastor Enyart agrees with as well as ideas that he doesn't.
    Apparently.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flipper View Post
    Well both special and general relativity require relative time.
    How so?

    Einstein's theories on the relativity of speed have no need for time to be relative.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    They would not be affected to the same degree because they rely on different mechanisms. But clearly both are affected by gravity. So, no, they would not both be reduced to "almost zero", but that does nothing to show that time is being dilated.
    I agree. But your prior statement that I was responding to made it sound as though the change in gravity would not only affect them both, but affect them equally.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    ... Einstein's theories on the relativity of speed have no need for time to be relative.
    Do you understand what Einstein's theories really do say?

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    Stripe, Cesium clocks are not affected by gravity. So if two Cesium clocks run at different rates, there has to be another explanation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    Apparently.


    How so?

    Einstein's theories on the relativity of speed have no need for time to be relative.
    Presumably you must be talking about Bizarro Einstein.

    The regular one entitled the second section of the first part of his paper on special relativity "On the Relativity of Lengths and Times".

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePhy View Post
    I agree. But your prior statement that I was responding to made it sound as though the change in gravity would not only affect them both, but affect them equally.
    So you agree that the observation can easily explained by assuming that gravity affects all clocks rather than assuming that gravity affects time.
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
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    Quote Originally Posted by chair View Post
    Stripe, Cesium clocks are not affected by gravity. So if two Cesium clocks run at different rates, there has to be another explanation.
    The experiment the OP links to directly contradicts your assertion here. An atomic clock on a mountain showed a different time from a synchronised clock closer to sea-level.

    Gravity did affect the clock. What other explanation could there possibly be? It wouldn't be air pressure. It wouldn't be temperature. I'm assuming the mechanism would be effectively guarded against those variables.What else could it be?
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
    When the world is a monster
    Bad to swallow you whole
    Kick the clay that holds the teeth in
    Throw your trolls out the door

    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
    -Bob B.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    So you agree that the observation can easily explained by assuming that gravity affects all clocks rather than assuming that gravity affects time.
    No, I am saying only that because one clock depends directly on gravity for its functioning, and the other does not, that a change in gravity will not affect them the same way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePhy View Post
    No, I am saying only that because one clock depends directly on gravity for its functioning, and the other does not, that a change in gravity will not affect them the same way.
    Oh.

    The experiment shows that gravity affected the atomic clock.

    That's the point of this thread.



    I agree that gravity does not affect it as much as it would a water clock.

    That's kinda by-the-by though, ain't it?
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
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    When the world is a monster
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    Kick the clay that holds the teeth in
    Throw your trolls out the door

    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    :squint: The experiment linked to showed the exact opposite. The experiment showed that the two clocks (on the mountain and off the mountain) ticked at different rates.
    What I said was correct because I added the qualifier "in its own inertial frame". In other words, someone watching the clock wouldn't notice the difference. That's because, as we discussed before, brainwaves and heartbeats, thoughts and emotions, would all be equally affected. You can take any time dependent process (which is, in fact, nearly everything in the universe) and it will experience the same time dilation as the atomic clock. This can be shown both mathematically and by experiment.

    We had this discussion before:

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny
    Your heart, for example, beat is a physical process. It starts with the spontaneous depolarization of cardiac cells (myocytes) in the SA node. These cells spontaneously depolarize due to the electrical conductance of specific ions in and outside of the cell. These ions interact with each other via the electromagnetic force. The electromagnetic force interacts via carrier particles -- photons or virtual photons. Thus, the electromagnetic force operates at the speed of light. And since we've already shown (and agreed) that the light clock slows down, then by extension we must also agree that the electromagnetic force slows down proportionally. And there you have it, the mechanism by which heart beat will slow down proportionally. This is not limited to heart beats.

    You can trace literally any physiologic process, be it axonal nerve conduction, to electrical impulses whizzing through your brain, to the contraction of muscles in your legs, to the boiling of water, to the chemical reactions that occur in your blood -- all of these processes are fundamentally tied to the atomic forces. Literally every single process and interaction in this universe, be it physiologic or chemical or otherwise, can be traced to the fundamental forces: gravity, electromagnetic, strong nuclear, and weak nuclear. And each of these forces has a virtual carrier particle which travels at the speed of light. This is why everything is affected by time dilation.
    ...to which your response was basically "I don't know"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe
    The atomic clock in the video is a large scale representation of what is happening on the quantum level, correct? I would suggest that speed's effect on the quantum level is uniform (i.e. it effects everything as you say), but that a macro level response will depend on the system. Thus with a clock we can look at a simple readout and infer the behaviour of the internal workings, but with a body part the effects are not translated into direct responses to the change at the quantum level.

    I suspect there is an inherent flaw in the thought experiments that attempt to scale up quantum effects to inflict paradoxes on standard reality.

    But I'm not so sure of my thinking on this matter.
    “There's nothing I like less than bad arguments for a view that I hold dear.” - Daniel Dennett

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    What I said was correct because I added the qualifier "in its own inertial frame". In other words, someone watching the clock wouldn't notice the difference. That's because, as we discussed before, brainwaves and heartbeats, thoughts and emotions, would all be equally affected. You can take any time dependent process (which is, in fact, nearly everything in the universe) and it will experience the same time dilation as the atomic clock. This can be shown both mathematically and by experiment.
    There is no need to add the qualifier. The clock on the hill showed a different time to the one off the hill. That difference can be attributed to the effect of gravity upon the clock.

    Do you not agree with Phy that gravity can and does affect different things to different degrees. Thus your claim that "brainwaves and heartbeats, thoughts and emotions, would all be equally affected" is demonstrably wrong, not to mention completely bizarre. How can gravity affect thoughts and emotions?

    Did you really just say that?
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
    When the world is a monster
    Bad to swallow you whole
    Kick the clay that holds the teeth in
    Throw your trolls out the door

    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
    -Bob B.

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    Dude, how heavy is your happiness?
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
    When the world is a monster
    Bad to swallow you whole
    Kick the clay that holds the teeth in
    Throw your trolls out the door

    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
    -Bob B.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    Oh.

    The experiment shows that gravity affected the atomic clock.

    That's the point of this thread.

    I agree that gravity does not affect it as much as it would a water clock.

    That's kinda by-the-by though, ain't it?
    But what you are saying now is significantly different than what you have already admitted was wrong in your first post in this thread. You said that the two clocks would be affected in “much the same way” by a change in gravity. In fact they would be affected dramatically differently.

    And so it should be explicitly clear that the “change in time” alluded to in the Mount Rainer article is a completely different animal than your gravity clock. It’s cesium clock high up versus cesium clock low down.

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