Are people born in Christ or born in sin?

S

Samie

New member
To start with, what, to you, does the Bible tell us in these verses:

KJV Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

KJV Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Can we then say "conceived in sin but sanctified before birth"?

Can anyone show one or two Bible verses to warrant the belief that people are born in sin?
 
R

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Samie said:
To start with, what, to you, does the Bible tell us in these verses:

KJV Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

KJV Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Can we then say "conceived in sin but sanctified before birth"?

Can anyone show one or two Bible verses to warrant the belief that people are born in sin?
Click to expand...

Have you raised any children? They bite, scream, and throw tantrums when you say no to them.
 
Ktoyou

Ktoyou

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Samie said:
Yes, I have.

Why is it you seem to view children opposite to how Jesus viewed them?

Matthew 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
Click to expand...
Good point, yet we are born to sin, and saved in Christ
 
CherubRam

CherubRam

New member
Samie said:
To start with, what, to you, does the Bible tell us in these verses:

KJV Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

KJV Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Can we then say "conceived in sin but sanctified before birth"?

Can anyone show one or two Bible verses to warrant the belief that people are born in sin?
Click to expand...

Jeremiah 1:5 is about Christ.


[FONT=&quot]A Body You Have Prepared For Me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Psalm 40 commentary.
N.I.V. foot note for [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Psalms 40:6[/FONT][FONT=&quot] reads:[/FONT][FONT=&quot] “Hebrew; Septuagint: but a body you have prepared for me. (See also Symmachus and Theodotion)” End of quote. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Symmachus the Ebonite was a late 2nd century author of one of the Greek versions of the Old Testament.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

Theodotion 200 A.D.
Theodotion was a Jewish scholar, perhaps working in Ephesus, who translated the Hebrew Bible into Greek. Whether he was revising the Septuagint, or was working from Hebrew manuscripts that represented a parallel tradition that has not survived, and is debated. His finished version, which filled some lacunae in the Septuagint version of the Book of Jeremiah and Book of Job, formed one column in Origen's Hexapla. (The Hexapla presented six Hebrew and Greek texts side-by-side: two Greek versions, by Aquila of Sinope and Symmachus, preceding the Septuagint, and Theodotian's version following it, apparently reflecting a contemporary understanding of their historical sequence.

Theodotion's translation was so widely copied in the Early Christian church, that it superseded the Septuagint Book of Daniel. Jerome, in his preface to Daniel records the rejection of the Septuagint version in Christian usage, asserting that its translation was very faulty.

Although Theodotion was Anti-Christ, it may not have occurred to him to change the Hebrew Psalm script from reading: “But a body you have prepared for me.” In [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Hebrews 10:5[/FONT][FONT=&quot] the verse is also repeated. “Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me;”…

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]1 Peter 3:18[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit.

Orthodox Jews claim that He (God) would not father a child upon a human woman. So, the idea of Christ being a human, fathered by the Holy Spirit is not 'impossible', it would just prove God to be a liar. If the lineage goes through Mary, it does not count because tribal lineage only goes through the father, while national lineage only goes through the mother. If it goes through Joseph, it does not count, because Joseph was not his father.


I would like to state that Christians never claimed that God procreated through Mary, but that He (God) created a body in the linage of David. I do not think that that linage ruling was in effect at the time of Christ birth.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]2 John 1:7[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Yahshua Messiah as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]1 John 2:22[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Yahshua is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son. 23. No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
24. See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25. And this is what he even promised us—eternal life.
26. I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27. As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The Masoretes Version[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Psalms 40:6[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but my ears you have pierced;[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
burnt offerings and sin offerings
you did not require.
7. Then I said, "Here I am, I have come—
it is written about me in the scroll.


If those who are the Anti-Christ deny that the Messiah would come in bodily form, then it is very likely for them to have changed the Hebrew text of [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Psalms 40:6[/FONT][FONT=&quot] to read:[/FONT][FONT=&quot] “but my ears you have pierced”…[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Long before the Christian era the scripture read: "a body you have prepared for me." The Masoretes Version is a late entry into the bible.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
 
D

daqq

Well-known member
Samie said:
To start with, what, to you, does the Bible tell us in these verses:

KJV Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

KJV Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Can we then say "conceived in sin but sanctified before birth"?

Can anyone show one or two Bible verses to warrant the belief that people are born in sin?
Click to expand...

David apparently did not understand the supernal nature of the Torah until the Prophet Nathan was sent to explain it to him, after what he had done, and he explained it to him using a parable concerning what the king had done.

Psalm 51:1-5 KJV
1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba. Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

This is what Nathan said to him:

2 Samuel 12:1-7 KJV
1 And the LORD sent Nathan unto David. And he came unto him, and said unto him, There were two men in one city; the one rich, and the other poor.
2 The rich man had exceeding many flocks and herds:
3 But the poor man had nothing, save one little ewe lamb, which he had bought and nourished up: and it grew up together with him, and with his children; it did eat of his own meat, and drank of his own cup, and lay in his bosom, and was unto him as a daughter.
4 And there came a traveller unto the rich man, and he spared to take of his own flock and of his own herd, to dress for the wayfaring man that was come unto him; but took the poor man's lamb, and dressed it for the man that was come to him.
5 And David's anger was greatly kindled against the man; and he said to Nathan, As the LORD liveth, the man that hath done this thing shall surely die:
6 And he shall restore the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing, and because he had no pity.
7 And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;

See how the Torah was explained to David in a parable concerning sheep, lambs, ewes, and a flock? The Master does the same, and so likewise do his apostles, including Paul. And how does the king respond? He quotes the Torah, the justice and the hammer, which shall come down upon the man who did such an evil deed, but he does not realize that he himself is the rich man in the parable. The one who is "shapen in iniquity" is so because he is born of "Jerusalem of below", and his understanding of the covenant is carnal, fleshly, and physical minded. The one who is born from above is born of "Jerusalem of above", the mother-(covenant) of us all. Therefore, speaking only for myself and what I believe according to the scripture, the phrase "shapen in iniquity" from Psa 51:5 has nothing to do with physical procreation and physical child birth. It has rather to do with the allegory of the two covenants which Paul expounds in Gal 4:22-31, which two covenants are really the same covenant but rather viewed through two different perspectives: the carnal and physical minded which views the covenant as speaking of literal-physical things, ("the Flesh") -vs- the supernal and spiritual minded which views the same covenant through the perspective of the Testimony of the Messiah, ("the Spirit"). Ironically those who use the Psa 51:5 passage to "prove" the idea of "original sin" actually view that very passage through a carnal man understanding of the scripture because they typically can only see it as pertaining to natural physical child birth. It is not talking about original sin or physical child birth but rather speaks of having been born out a false carnal and physical understanding of the holy, supernal, and spiritual Word of Elohim. Nicodemus had to learn the same thing, and no doubt he did, for all of his training and teaching had to be relearned, going back into the "womb of his mother"-(covenant) Jerusalem of above. His first training came from carnal minded men who fancied themselves teachers of the Torah, and thus, in his first learning, upbringing, or training, he was "shapen in iniquity" and did not truly understand the Torah, (for it must be internalized because the kingdom of Elohim is within you).
 
S

Samie

New member
Ktoyou said:
Good point, yet we are born to sin, and saved in Christ
Click to expand...
What, to you, does "born to sin" means? Is it the same as "born in sin"?

For me, to be "born in sin" is to be "born NOT in Christ", that is, born APART from Christ, because sin separates man from God.
 
Ktoyou

Ktoyou

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Samie said:
What, to you, does "born to sin" means? Is it the same as "born in sin"?

For me, to be "born in sin" is to be "born NOT in Christ", that is, born APART from Christ, because sin separates man from God.
Click to expand...

Born to the world, not in Christ.
 
Nick M

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
The law proves you need a savior. God is not imputing your trespasses against you.
 
D

Danoh

New member
jamie said:
If you can't define sin then you can't determine if infants are born in sin.

Since you don't know what sin is we're at a standstill.
Click to expand...

One would also have to define what constitutes sin, not only before, and during, The Law, but after.

There is the Basic Operating Principle or Basic Rule of Thumb they each all share in common.

And then there is the Different Application they each do not necessarily have in common.

And here is an interesting, seeming dichotomy...

Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

1 Timothy 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Rom. 5:8
 
S

Samie

New member
Any direct answer whether people are born in sin or born in Christ?

If people are born in sin, then they are born apart from Christ because sin separates man from God.

If one is born APART from Christ, then he can do NOTHING, as Christ Himself EXPLICITLY said. So how come preachers ask people who they say are born apart from Christ and hence can do NOTHING, to do the acts of believing and accepting?
 
D

daqq

Well-known member
Samie said:
Any direct answer whether people are born in sin or born in Christ?

If people are born in sin, then they are born apart from Christ because sin separates man from God.

If one is born APART from Christ, then he can do NOTHING, as Christ Himself EXPLICITLY said. So how come preachers ask people who they say are born apart from Christ and hence can do NOTHING, to do the acts of believing and accepting?
Click to expand...

It is too bad you apparently did not understand my previous post. What will you do when you run into this guy? (simply meaning the proverbial Calvinist-Reformer who runs around posting all those same passages which "that guy" quoted, beginning of course, with Psa 51:5). If you can see and understand what was said in my previous post, (by the scripture), "that guy's" entire argument is null and void because his entire paradigm is skewed by the natural mind of man, seeing "birth" only as physical natural child birth. You don't think you were naturally born as a babe into this physical world already "in Messiah" do you? If so then why would there be any need to be "born anew", "reborn", or "born from above"?
 
Last edited:
oatmeal

oatmeal

Well-known member
We were born with a sinful nature.

Body and soul only.

When we did Romans 10:9, we were saved from that and were made whole by God's gift to us.

The gift of holy spirit. I John 4:13.

Which with the written logos of God enables us to overcome our sin and become Christ like
 
Last edited:
jamie

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Samie said:
For me, to be "born in sin" is to be "born NOT in Christ", that is, born APART from Christ, because sin separates man from God.
Click to expand...

Jesus said, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:44)

The Father does not draw newborns to Christ.

Obviously newborns are not born in Christ.
 
jamie

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Samie said:
If one is born APART from Christ, then he can do NOTHING, as Christ Himself EXPLICITLY said.
Click to expand...

Newborns and all others can do nothing to save themselves.

Salvation is only by God's grace, not by our good works.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top