The Trinity

popsthebuilder said:

Faith in GOD and Jesus, His work, and example and selfless sacrifice are effectual. Believing unto righteousness isn't one being righteous in their acts or words, or doing for public viewing; they aren't doing things of themselves or even their wants, bit submitting to the Will of GOD and having faith in His Word.

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Believing unto righteousness is being justified by faith AND being created IN Christ a new creature. It's the difference of self effort or REST. Are we conformed into the image of the Son by God, or do we do the conforming. Why is boasting excluded by the Law of Faith? It's so that we won't see people claiming how well they obey. But, we see it all the time from so many here.

All glory goes to God for saving us, conforming us into the image of the Son, and performing and completing the work He began in us. That means that God has ordained the FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT will be produced IN and through us. He is faithful even when we are not.

Is to not be faithful the same as turning from, or disregarding, or metaphorically tossing said affection over ones shoulder in indifference?

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There is no "indifference" with true believers. Only those who have not been created in HIM would even imagine such a thing was possible.

I do not mean to speak as if I know of obedience wholly; I surely do not.

I do not mean to imply anything about you personally either, but am just asking what you believe or think or what have you.

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Frankly, I believe what Paul has explained so well in his letters. Reckon yourselves to be dead to sin, and that very act of faith will make it real in your life. We should be looking at the Lord's obedience unto death and stop focusing on ourselves all the time. I get so tired of this "me", "me", "me" stuff.

popsthebuilder said:

Yes I understand what you are saying I think.

He was made wholly in the likeness of Man and indeed tried as a man and tested and found wholly to be pure; not for the sake of GOD, but for the sake of creation.

Do we still agree?

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Yes, we do.

popsthebuilder said:

I was only trying to say that GOD can cause a person to do a thing, or direct a person indirectly, or outside of that person's knowledge, and that GOD doesn't have to be in that person in the form of the Holy Spirit to cause a thing that GOD wills.

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I think I agree with that. Could you give me an example though? I would like an example because Calvinism has beliefs about this that lead to their false doctrines.

popsthebuilder said:

Likewise; thank you sincerely, and please do be patient with me as you know of my disposition (my relative newness to scripture).

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Thank you again, and I will definitely be patient.

glorydaz said:

Believing unto righteousness is being justified by faith AND being created IN Christ a new creature.

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Justified by faith in what? Justified by faith that Jesus' blood cleans us, of the sins we repent of doing.

glorydaz said:

It's the difference of self effort or REST.

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The self effort or REST is that we do not have to clean ourselves by getting circumcised, adhering to a dietary law, doing various external washings and sacrificing animals.

glorydaz said:

Are we conformed into the image of the Son by God, or do we do the conforming.

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We obey Jesus' teachings that is how we are transformed.

Romans 12:2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to discern what is the good, pleasing, and perfect will of God.

glorydaz said:

Why is boasting excluded by the Law of Faith? It's so that we won't see people claiming how well they obey. But, we see it all the time from so many here.

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Paul boasted about how well he obeyed, and he boasted in how well other Christians obeyed. He also said he wanted to boast on the day of the Lord.

As for not being able to boast, the Jews used to boast because of what they did to their flesh.

Just ask for the scripture references if you don't know them.

glorydaz said:

All glory goes to God for saving us, conforming us into the image of the Son, and performing and completing the work He began in us. That means that God has ordained the FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT will be produced IN and through us. He is faithful even when we are not. Jesus saves us all on his own and he chooses to save those who obey. See Acts 5:32.


There is no "indifference" with true believers. Only those who have not been created in HIM would even imagine such a thing was possible.

Frankly, I believe what Paul has explained so well in his letters. Reckon yourselves to be dead to sin, and that very act of faith will make it real in your life. We should be looking at the Lord's obedience unto death and stop focusing on ourselves all the time. I get so tired of this "me", "me", "me" stuff.

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How does anyone ever get that obeying Jesus' words are wrong?

Bright Raven said:

I found an article that supports your stance. It is actually pretty good. See here. http://www.commentaryonthebible.com/howtobesaved/we-must-obey-god-to-be-saved/

In reality after all this debate, doesn't it only make sense that we should obey to be saved? Why would we disobey and think that our actions would be acceptable before a holy God.

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Hearing an argument of faith vs obedience is like listening to an argument about food vs. water. You need both to live and there's some overlap. If one does have faith in Christ then they have faith to be obedient. If one is obedient to Christ then that demonstrates that they already have that faith. Saying that we can be saved by one without the other seems to imply that the terms aren't being properly understood.

1. If you have true faith in Christ then you acknowledge him as Lord and will willingly follow his commandments.
2. If you are obedient to Christ then you will willingly try to live as he wants us to live, even if it initially takes some practice (faith).
3. If we are obedient to Christ we will love one another and even love our enemies, and this will become visible in all we do.

But if someone hears "obedience to Christ" by their words but witnesses "obedience to ego and hatred" by actions, which message is going to stick? Which was preached more strongly?

Bright Raven said:

To sum it up; the Father is not Jesus or the Spirit, Jesus is not the Father or the Spirit and The Spirit is not the Father or Jesus. Pretty easy to see the separation. It is also in the fourth chapter of john. John 14:17 and 23

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In those passages you picked, they can just as easily be read as indirect ways of referring to the same God of the same person and same personality. It may seem easy to see separation to you, because of your current perspective, but it doesn't seem that way from my perspective.

God's Truth said:

Thank you again, and I will definitely be patient.

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:rotfl:

Bright Raven said:

because they are one in essence and three in person.

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... by that same definition used by James White, you and I are one in essence as well. That would mean that Bright Raven, Rosenritter, and Popsthebuilder would be a Trinity because we are one in essence and three in person. With three different personalities.

This is one of those "the Emperor Has No Clothes" moments. The way you are describing Trinity is polytheism. Three Gods, three different personalities, three different individuals. "One essence" meaning "one common type of material" doesn't make it One God. The angels are all made of the same substance and same essence, but it never says "there is One angel" does it? Mankind is all made of the dust of the earth, one in essence, but it doesn't say "there is one man" either, right? The word "one" is universally understood to not mean "many."

If there were three different persons with three different personalities, Israel wouldn't have been told so emphatically that "the LORD your God is one LORD" - wouldn't it have been more fitting to say "the LORD your God is three persons?" When he says "I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself" (Isaiah 44:24) again it uses the singular pronoun. Were God multiple persons then why does it use the singular pronoun, and how could he have done this alone? How could God ever have been "by myself" if he's always a crowd?

If I refer to Dagoth, Baal, and Ashtar, those are all (hypothetically) of the same essence, but we still call those three different gods because they are three different persons with three individual personalities.

If there were three different persons with three different personalities, then how could Jesus possibly have answered as he did when he was asked "show us the Father?" If someone asked me "Show me Bright Raven" could i possibly say "If you have seen me, you have seen Bright Raven?"

John 14:8-9 KJV
(8) Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
(9) Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?


Whether you want to use the term Trinity or not, it matters less to me, but these cannot be different personalities. Peace always please.

popsthebuilder said:

Same as you.... It hasn't changed.

You word it more clearly than I seem to be able to.

My whole issue with the division of the man Jesus from the absolute literal fullness of GOD as a man who walked the earth is because though it is possible for GOD, as anything is; it has absolutely atrocious potential for evil if the wrong one decides they are the second coming.

We know what happened due to the ancient rcc.

Please don't misunderstand me; the Spirit that was in Jesus of Nazareth was the same Holy Spirit of GOD that utterly filled the vessel of the Christ. It is the same Christ that will/ does indwell the saved and is GOD.

I hope I have made myself clear, but the chances are slim.

Please ask about misunderstandings.....

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I don't understand the boldfaced part above. Can you explain please?

popsthebuilder said:

I was only trying to say that GOD can cause a person to do a thing, or direct a person indirectly, or outside of that person's knowledge, and that GOD doesn't have to be in that person in the form of the Holy Spirit to cause a thing that GOD wills.

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"Is Saul among the prophets?"

glorydaz said:

:rotfl:

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Ezekiel 33:14-16 KJV
(14) Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;
(15) If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
(16) None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.

Glorydaz, would it be possible to lower the heckling level a notch? It doesn't make sense to harass good behavior, unless you're trying to prevent it from becoming habit-forming.

Rosenritter said:

Ezekiel 33:14-16 KJV
(14) Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;
(15) If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
(16) None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.

Glorydaz, would it be possible to lower the heckling level a notch? It doesn't make sense to harass good behavior, unless you're trying to prevent it from becoming habit-forming.

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Nope not possible......I don't humour hypocrites. White washed actors are still actors.

Good behaviour....."for the eyes of men" doesn't impress me.
If you're fooled by it, that's your problem.

Bright Raven said:

because they are one in essence and three in person.

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I see that differently, they are three different Spirits but one personality, because Christ Jesus loves, speaks, has mercy and forgiveness etc. just as the father has. They are one in this way, and we are one with them when we are born of God, because we too should have the same love within our hearts as Christ and the father. Those born of God have their own Spirit, but we don't live by our own will, we live by the will of the father who has sent the spirit of truth to teach and guide us daily.

Jesus, the father and the Holy Spirit are separate, but they are one in love life, and word.

Rosenritter said:

Jamie, I think I've asked this a couple times. I'm not sure I've heard your answer. So I'd like to take this opportunity to rephrase it:

1) Would you say that Han Solo is Harrison Ford?
2) Would you say that Indiana Jones is Harrison Ford?
3) Would you say that Indiana Jones is Han Solo?

Could you also add a "why or why not" on the end of those please? or even a "when or when not?" Thank you.

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Jamie? I'm Mary

Anyway, yes Harrison ford is Indiana Jones, but Indiana Jones doesn't call himself "we" and "our"

Jesus isn't the father.

Rosenritter said:

... or you could put GE on ignore. No one would think any less of you for it.

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Why do you call her GE? And thanks, but I don't want to put anyone on ignore.I just wanted to point out that a person, can't call another, a worker of Satan when they themselves are doing what they accuse that person of doing. And a lot more too!

But it shouldn't matter what anyone says about us personally, God knows our hearts and he's our judge. Jesus taught us to be forgiving, and Paul and Peter said too that if they speak evil of us, we are not to do likewise. God loves us all the same and wants us all back. So yes, we are to bare witness to the truth, defend God and Christ, but whatever others say or do to us personally we are to take it and show the love of Christ in return and forgive.

I've learnt in my life, that to truly forgive, lifts hardness away from my heart, and I've needed God to help me to do this in my life. Because I couldn't forgive some of the things that I have been through, without having his love within. And now, he's taken all that hardness etc. away from my heart, and I'm free and it's an amazing feeling!


1 Peter 2

For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed*himself*to him that judgeth righteously:

1 Peter 3

Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.

Romans 12

Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

And our Lord Jesus

Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

And we can't do any of this without God and Christ, but with God a things are possible!

God's Truth said:

Let's talk about that and not about me. Stop trying to tell me what I sound like.

Jesus is the EXACT SAME as the Father, there is no difference.

Jesus even calls himself the exact name that God calls himself.

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You deny Gods Son.

LA

popsthebuilder said:

Please don't misunderstand me; the Spirit that was in Jesus of Nazareth was the same Holy Spirit of GOD that utterly filled the vessel of the Christ. It is the same Christ that will/ does indwell the saved and is GOD.

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The Spirit of God in a believer includes the Spirit of the man Jesus, since the day of Pentecost.

LA

Lazy afternoon said:

The Spirit of God in a believer includes the Spirit of the man Jesus, since the day of Pentecost.

LA

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We do not receive two different Spirits.

Lazy afternoon said:

You deny Gods Son.

LA

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Only in your imagination.