A problem with open theism (HOF thread)

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Agape4Robin

Member
Clete said:
The part about you having missed my point addressed the rest of what you said.


That's just the point A4R, there is mountains of Biblical evidence for the Trinity, real solid evidence that can't be explained away with any intellectual integrity. There is no such evidence for the idea that God exhaustively knows the future. It just isn't in there.
Stop responding to me as though I'm playing some juvenile game. I'm quite serious about this and have spent a great deal of time thinking this through and defending my beliefs both logically and Biblically. If you have genuine questions, I'm happy to answer them but taking pot shots for emotional effect will only serve to shut this conversation down.

Resting in Him,
Clete
Defending your preconcieved ideas that Mr. Boyd fed you and appealed to your intellect....so what? Even pastors vigilant to defend the right for men to own slaves, used "biblical" arguements to support their beliefs. Abusive men defend their rights (beliefs) to weild their repressive authority over women by using the Bible.

You prove nothing, sir!
 

drbrumley

Well-known member
Freak said:
Clete you're such the drama queen. :down:
:yawn:

And your a :baby: . So stay on topic Freak. I know its hard to not resort to personnal attacks but if we are going to get anywhere, posts like this and mine now as a result of your post, shouldn't be allowed. Deal?
 

drbrumley

Well-known member
Freak said:
She was merely pointing out the obvious, Dr. Boydwannabe. Boydism is another passing fad that a fringe group of believers embrace. That's all.

Come on :baby:, you can do better.
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Agape4Robin said:
God knows when and how we will die, can we choose not to die? :think:


Did He know this even before you existed? Why does He not prevent suicides and murders by miscarriages?
 

Clete

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Freak said:
Let's see if Clete will answer the questions.
I will answer any question you pose. That is unless you prove to be a jackass and say something inane like this one more time.

Re-read my answer. You do know I answered your question, correct?
You didn't give a straight answer, no. Why not give a simple yes or no answer to the question? Do you or don't you accept the presence of antinomy in the Christian faith? Why are you so scared of this? I don't get it.

It wasn't prophecy? Bizarre.
It was totally prophecy. I didn't say it wasn't.

Questions for Clete:

1. Clete: If God were to "change his mind" about anything, this would mean by default that he failed to have complete knowledge (omniscience). Correct?
Incorrect. (Jeremiah 18)

You may ask Freak- why is this? Well, if a "change" became necessary for God, this would be a shortcoming or lack of complete knowledge.
No it wouldn't, your logic is juvenile and silly. You've read too much of Plato. You should reread Jeremiah 18. God explains in detail why He might be led to change His mind.

2. Clete: any change in a perfect God-including a "changed mind"-would mean God changed to something less than perfect since perfection implies completeness, lacking no thing. Change for a perfect Being must be a change for the worst since a perfect God could not change for the better. A "changing perfect God" is, therefore, a contradiction and fails to describe an all-powerful, all-knowing, everywhere-present God. Think about it. Would a perfect LIVING God change for the better?
Is this Freak I'm talking to or Plato? You do realize you are nearly quoting him verbatim, right? No such logic can be found in the Bible. You do still hold to Sola Scriptura, do you not?
This has already been addressed by Knight but since you want me to answer your inane questions which you ignore perfectly good answer too, here goes nothing...

This logic of Plato's (that a change in something must be for the better or for the worse) is flawed to begin with because it completely ignores the third possibility which is a neutral change. But even if you accepted it on some basic level (which I do not) it could only apply to things which are static by nature. Anything alive that does not change in anyway whatsoever isn't alive (by definition), thus God MUST change in some respect or else He cannot be a living God.
Is your God a living God, Freak? If so, you must reject this pagan philosophical crap in favor of something far more Biblical.
It can be proven easily that God changes in real and in important ways. God existed for an eternity as a Spirit and at one time become a man. He hadn't always been a man but He BECAME a man. He then later DIED! After that He rose from the dead never to die again. He, at that point had acquired a glorified body which He had never had up until that point. He then ascended BACK to the Father. Up to the incarnation He had never been in a position where it would have been possible for Him to ASCEND to anywhere particularly not to the Father. And on and on I could go listing change after change having to do with the very gospel story itself.

3. Keep in mind, Clete, that a perfect Being can't lack anything that is characteristic of his nature or he fails to be perfect. Now, how does this relate to whether or not God can change his mind? Well, if God could change his mind, this would mean that his "conclusion" or "knowledge" prior to the change was incorrect. He would, therefore, not be the perfect Being that he must be by nature. Any change in God would be a violation of his attributes. Correct?
No, incorrect. Again see Jeremiah 18. God Himself says explicitly that He will repent (change His mind) if the situation calls for it.

This is fairly simple, Clete, a changing God implies a incompleteness. A change for a perfect being (God) must be a change for the worst since a perfect God could not change for the better-for He is perfect.
No it implies that only in the mind of Aristotle and Plato. Change does not imply incompleteness. Further, your definition of perfection is not Biblical. I have a question for you. What does it mean for God to be perfect and why? Please establish any attempted answer to that question Biblically please.

The apostle John, in speaking of the Lord God, states, that He knows ALL things. Ever read the Books John has written?
I've read them all many times and I think that you know as well as I do that ALL almost never means "every last single thing" when used in common language. If God only knows those things that He wants to know that are knowable, it would not be an incorrect thing to say that God knows "all" things. It would be a very common way of speaking and it would not be necessary to explain all the exceptions to such a general statement, in fact it would be weird to do so.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

Agape4Robin

Member
Jeremiah 18:7-11
I will relent concerning the calamity
I planned to bring


"At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it; 8if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it. 9“Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; 10if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it. 11“So now then, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem saying, ‘Thus says the Lord, “Behold, I am fashioning calamity against you and devising a plan against you. Oh turn back, each of you from his evil way, and reform your ways and your deeds," (Jer. 18:7-11).

Interestingly enough, the open theists often refer to this section of scripture to prove that God changes His mind. But, if anything, these verses work against the open theist.
God works covenantally. In other words, He establishes covenants with people and ratifies them with signs. Covenants are packs and agreements between two or more parties. These covenants have stipulations and conditions with rewards for faithfulness and punishments for breaking the covenant. So, God relates to us in covenant terms.
God is telling us here in Jer. 18:7-11 that if a person repents from his sin and even though God was moving towards him in punishment, the Lord will stop and change His course of action should the person repent. God is being covenantally faithful to His people. He is stating how He works. He is saying that He will relent of the punishment He was going to bring upon a people if that people turns from its sin. In fact, God often tells them that He will punish them, which causes them to repent, whereby God then proclaims that He will not punish them. From all eternity God knew they would repent, but used His declarative threat to bring them to that place of repentance. If He did not tell them what would happen to them if they were to continue in sin, they wouldn't have repented.
Therefore, God is relating to people in their time frame, properly pronouncing judgment upon them for their sin, and then not carrying out that punishment if and when they repent. It is the means by which God knowingly brings them to repentance and is not a demonstration that God is "wishy washy."
 

Clete

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Agape4Robin said:
Defending your preconcieved ideas that Mr. Boyd fed you and appealed to your intellect....so what?
I have read about a third of a book that Mr. Boyd only contributed too. I did not get this from him.
Further, so what if I did? This theolgy is either correct or it is not, the man who teaches it has nothing to do with whether it is or is not Biblical.

Even pastors vigilant to defend the right for men to own slaves, used "biblical" arguements to support their beliefs. Abusive men defend their rights (beliefs) to weild their repressive authority over women by using the Bible.

You prove nothing, sir!
Then nothing can be proved. Is that what you are saying? How would you propose I prove it if not by using the Bible? Is there a new "Agape4Robin Truth Test" that all theology must pass now? If so, on what basis was this test formulated? Obviously not the Bible because you can defend black slavery with the Bible, right?

I want an answer from you on this, a direct no stupid silly games answer.

In what way can any theology, including yours, be proven true if not Biblically?

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Agape4Robin said:
Jeremiah 18:7-11
I will relent concerning the calamity
I planned to bring


"At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it; 8if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it. 9“Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; 10if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it. 11“So now then, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem saying, ‘Thus says the Lord, “Behold, I am fashioning calamity against you and devising a plan against you. Oh turn back, each of you from his evil way, and reform your ways and your deeds," (Jer. 18:7-11).
God is telling us here in Jer. 18:7-11 that if a person repents from his sin and even though God was moving towards him in punishment, the Lord will stop and change His course of action should the person repent.
Thank you! You are now an Open Theist. Congratulations!

The remainder of what you said is in effect "God is faithful to His word." which no one here denies. God's character and personality do not change but that is not the only way in which a person is able to change which your own words here demonstrate.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

Agape4Robin

Member
Clete said:
I have read about a third of a book that Mr. Boyd only contributed too. I did not get this from him.
Further, so what if I did? This theolgy is either correct or it is not, the man who teaches it has nothing to do with whether it is or is not Biblical.


Then nothing can be proved. Is that what you are saying? How would you propose I prove it if not by using the Bible? Is there a new "Agape4Robin Truth Test" that all theology must pass now? If so, on what basis was this test formulated? Obviously not the Bible because you can defend black slavery with the Bible, right?

I want an answer from you on this, a direct no stupid silly games answer.

In what way can any theology, including yours, be proven true if not Biblically?

Resting in Him,
Clete
Context, Clete. Scripture proves scripture. But if you have preconcieved beliefs contrary to what is actually biblical, then I can't convince you of anything outside of the OTV.
 

Agape4Robin

Member
Clete said:
Thank you! You are now an Open Theist. Congratulations!

The remainder of what you said is in effect "God is faithful to His word." which no one here denies. God's character and personality do not change but that is not the only way in which a person is able to change which your own words here demonstrate.

Resting in Him,
Clete
Nice job of taking the whole thing out of context to prove your point.....much like you do the Bible. Way to pick and choose...... :loser:
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Agape4Robin said:
Context, Clete. Scripture proves scripture. But if you have preconcieved beliefs contrary to what is actually biblical, then I can't convince you of anything outside of the OTV.
Hypocrite.
 
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