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  1. #91
    Old Timer Nimrod's Avatar
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    Re: Oh, realy, you draw the line, ,,, there

    I have question listed as Q#) and again at the bottom for you 1 Way.

    Originally posted by 1Way
    The issue of keeping the Sabbath the way God said it must be kept, was a matter of life and death, salvation and eternal damnation.
    I completely disagree about salvation. Breaking the sabbath today is not eternal damnation. You won't lose your salvation if you break the sabbath. No one is/was saved by observing the Law. This is a problem with dispensationalist, they think that the Jews were saved differently than the NT believers.
    Gen 15:6 "And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness"
    Q1)How were OT saints saved? Hmmmmmmm

    Now here is the verse that looks like you will lose your salvation for breaking the sabbath.
    Exodus 31:14 "Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. "

    It seems that the Jews would lose their salvation if they broke the sabbath. But notice the same instruction is given in circumcision.

    But look in Genesis 17:14 "And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant"

    Abraham was righteous BEFORE circumcision came into effect.
    Q2)Could Abraham lose his salvation if he didn't circumcize?

    Romans 4:9-10 "Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision."

    Summary: you wont lose your salvation for not keeping the sabbath.
    Keeping the sabbath is for santification not justification.
    God blessed the sabbath, therefore to receive a blessing, keep the sabbath.
    "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. "

    Q3)Did God bless the sabbath?
    Q4)Is the sabbath for the Jews only?

    Summary: The sabbath was in effect before the LAW and before the Jews, therefore it is/was not just for the Jews.

    I think as Christian believers we need to correct people about their wrongful ways, but not hit them over the head with a hammer! IF someone sins, we should speak to them lovinly and hope they will correct themselves.

    Q5)Out of the ten commandments, which of them do you feel we can break and is not a sin in todays dispensation? Thou shall not covet? Thou shall not make a grave image? It is amazing to me that you will pick 1 of the ten not to observe.

    but you are not saying that, are you? You are altering the commandment to fit your lifestyle
    As I said earlier, I looked at what Jesus said about the sabbath.

    Matt 12:11 "What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? "

    Luke 14:5 "Which of you shall have an *** or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the sabbath day? "

    Do you think I would miss going to service because the I am not to start the car on the sabbath? How silly that is. When God told Moses not to start a fire, in those days it was work. Yes there were grounds for being put to death, but lets face it, it doesn't happen today does it.
    Q6)When David murdered, why then wasn't he put to death?
    Q7)When Jonah prophized about the destruction of Nevenah, and it didn't happen, wasn't he a false prophet? Why wasn't he put to death? You think God had somethign to do with it? I think God did. When the man picked up sticks in Number 15:32, who told them they should be stoned? God or Moses?


    The sabbath continues.
    Matt 24:20 "But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day"
    I am really curious about this verse. How do you dispenationalist interpret this verse? I thought you believethe sabbath was done away with.
    Q8)Isn't this verse about the future?
    Q9)Does it only apply to Jews?


    If you are not living like a full blown law keeping Jew, then you are breaking the commandments of God
    What Jew did not break a commandment? Again, keeping the commandment, which none of us can do, is for santification NOT justification.

    1 Way don't miss out the blessing of the sabbath!

    ---------------Questions---------------------
    Q1)How were OT saints saved?
    Q2)Could Abraham lose his salvation if he didn't circumcize?
    Q3)Did God bless the sabbath?
    Q4)Is the sabbath for the Jews only?
    Q5)Out of the ten commandments, which of them do you feel we can break and is not a sin in todays dispensation?
    Q6)When David murdered, why then wasn't he put to death?
    Q7)When Jonah prophized about the destruction of Nevenah, and it didn't happen, wasn't he a false prophet? Why wasn't he put to death?
    Q8)Isn't this verse about the future?
    Q9)Does it only apply to Jews?

  2. #92
    Journeyman Mateo's Avatar
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    FAITH IS AS FAITH DOES---- Forest Gump?
    http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10576

  3. #93
    +OL remote satellite affiliate 1Way's Avatar
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    Nimrod – 1 of 2
    You said
    I completely disagree about salvation. Breaking the sabbath today is not eternal damnation. You won't lose your salvation if you break the sabbath. No one is/was saved by observing the Law. This is a problem with dispensationalist, they think that the Jews were saved differently than the NT believers.
    You state this completely backwards and in so many ways.

    I did not say that “today” you will go to hell if you break the Sabbath.

    According to God, if you broke the Sabbath as mentioned by the reference I already gave you, that person went to hell, so your wrong, braking the Sabbath could send to you hell, but not necessarily in every case.

    God said to keep His law or be cut off from Him. How much more simple can it be? His commandments (=the law) were not superfluous, it was the way of salvation, and it includes loving and trusting (=faith) in God alone. It was faith plus works, not just works, and not just faith, you had to have them both! So if anyone argues about not being saved by doing just the works of the law, they are right, but if anyone did all of the works of the law, then they would have loved and believed God also, so faith and works are commanded by the law, you need them both.

    This is the problem with non-dispensationalists, they mix together what God keeps separate.

    Gen 15:6 is right and you understand it wrong. Abram is the father of TWO different groups of believers because he received the promise before being circumcised.

    Ex 31:14 and the circumcision requirements can not nullify other scripture and the passage I gave you where the man died in his guilt for breaking the Sabbath, at God’s command, being “completely” cut off, i.e. no longer part of God’s people.

    Circumcision was a covenant relationship between God and man, to be part of God’s accepted covenant people, you had to be circumcised, it was not an option, it was a requirement. God nearly went about to kill either Moses or his son (I think He was after Moses) because he had not yet circumcised his child! So I have only consistent biblical basis for maintaining that the law keepers had to keep the law or risk their own life and salvation.

    Abraham was righteous before being circumcised, so what? Paul was saved by grace through faith alone yet was water baptized, so what? God gave Paul progressive revelation about salvation even though when he was first saved he would have taught a salvation by keeping the law. God saves ignorant people and people who believe wrong things all the time. As for Abraham, you seem to not appreciate the brilliance of God making Abram the father of two different groups of believers, because this difference in when he was accounted for righteousness is why he is a good example for being the father of two (different) groups, so naturally we find that he can righteously be identified with both groups, but that in no way makes your point that therefore everyone under the law was saved the same way we are today who are “not” under the law and they were under the law.

    Q2 – Yes, Abraham could have lost his salvation and life by braking the law, just like Moses almost did.

    Q3 – Yes
    Q4 – Yes, it’s for the Jews and proselyte Jews, i.e. those who were under the law, those of the circumcision, those who were God’s chosen and elect people/nation. Not for those who are in the body of Christ, Jewish or non-Jewish. As God through Paul said, were you called while circumcised, or uncircumcised, ok, then remain that way, the group you belonged to while you were called to salvation, that was where God drew the line of separation for starting the body of Christ. If you were already under the law and circumcision, then you were supposed to stay that way, while the new group of believers were to replace the previous group until God is done with this group and start back again with the circumcision “group” again.

    You said
    Summary: The sabbath was in effect before the LAW and before the Jews, therefore it is/was not just for the Jews.
    Like God said, do not add nor subtract from His commandments, so you have no standing to invalidate what God said is commanded. God commanded that braking the Sabbath can be a matter of life and death and in the case of that man picking up sticks, the passage you seem afraid of, that was a picture of damnation because of him braking the Sabbath.

    God changes things a lot, He seems found of appropriate change. Murder is a absolute moral wrong, yet, God reversed His commandment about what should happen to a murderer. Only God has the right to alter His commandments, you do not have that right.

    Q5 Your question’s presuppositions are conflicting. God does not impute sin on the saved, so if you are talking about salvation, then you can brake them all and not sin, if you are talking otherwise, then you can brake none of God’s in force commandments and not sin. Do you think that practicing Jews are wrong for no longer doing the sacrifices since Jesus fulfilled that? Point is that some of the law has been fulfilled in Christ (a tremendous change) and so I do not pick and choose which one’s to obey and which not to obey, you are the one who does that since you claim to be a law keeper, not me. I do not keep the law of God, except for those God has placed us in the body of Christ under.

    Continued next post...
    Last edited by 1Way; March 16th, 2004 at 05:13 AM.
    TTT Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good. Ro 12:9

  4. #94
    +OL remote satellite affiliate 1Way's Avatar
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    Nimrod – 2 of 2

    Q6 – Because God has the right to intervene in human affairs and do what man does not have the right to do, like forgive a murder and an adulterer.

    Q7 – No, sorry, but I have to say, that seems really dumb to me. Or do you think that God’s word was in error when God said that Jonah did as God told him to do and say? Being a false prophet, means, you spoke falsely on behalf of God. I mean, that is one simple concept. Who knows, maybe you will be able to stand corrected on this mammoth and technically confounding issue. (LOL)

    There is NO indication that Jonah was lying or otherwise falsifying God’s message.

    God told them to kill the man. So what is your (non) point? The story is presented such as for all to see understand the reason he was put to death. It was an example of the immediately proceeding teaching where God speaks of a person who willfully defiles the Sabboth will be surely put to death, being “completely cut off” and his guilt remaining upon him. The text gives no indication that the man was a special case exception like David was for example.

    Q8 Yes and no, when it was first given, it was about the near future, like within the life spans of those Jesus was talking to, no, in terms of the fact that God changed His plans of dealing with national Israel due to their continued national unbelief. So He postponed their earthly Davidic Kingdom until He is done with us. If God had not postponed everything as He did, then that Sabbath teaching would have been for way back then.

    Q9 I already answered this. Yes, it is only for those under the law for righteous faith in God.

    You said
    What Jew did not break a commandment? Again, keeping the commandment, which none of us can do, is for santification NOT justification.
    I’m thinking again. Your saying that God, who is wise and reasonable, commanded man to do what man can not do.
    God gave the law so that they may live (forever with God) and be in a righteous relationship with God (=salvation). The commandments of God were serious life and death, salvation and damnation issues, they were not optional or insincere.

    God never said, you either have to keep all of my laws perfectly without breaking any of them, or you will go to hell. That is pure fictional nonsense. God commanded that you keep his law with all your strength and mind and soul. And in God’s word, there are examples of godly men doing just that. It is not an impossible task to obey what God commands us to obey.

    Also, God provided a way for forgiveness if (and often when) they sinned. So keeping the law had correction for human error built in.

    And what about all the problems of inter-conflicting laws, doesn’t that also demonstrate that God never really meant for man to keep them all? No, God expected man to use his brain and trust in the goodness and righteousness of God and that when some commands came into conflict and contradiction, you were not held responsible for that problem. God created that problem, not man. And all of human history and God’s word demonstrates that under such conflicting circumstances, the law keeper was just fine. The rule of thumb seems to be that which ever was a positive command generally outweighed a negative one, and which ever command was more important or weightier should supercede a less one, but never to do away with any laws as optional.

    You have a point about the various aspects of the law making it such that man could not always and perfectly keep the law, but you can not take that grace any further than God allows. I mean, how can you repeat a command of God that ends in,

    if you don’t do this, you shall surely be put to death,

    and then think that you could willingly break that command and remain in good standing with God.

    Please directly answer what I have brought before you for consideration, especially the man picking up sticks. A positive teaching usurps an implied one. We know that man was in eternal jeopardy, all indications are that he went to hell. If you can not somehow undo that teaching, then it stands and you are found at odds with God’s word. Also, you forgot to deal with Jesus’ teaching, as well as Paul’s, that if you are under the law i.e. a “law keeper”, then you are bound to keep the whole law, you do not have the standing to decide which laws you prefer to keep.

    That was funny, why wasn't Jonah put to death... Because he obeyed God and was not a false prophet,,, ??? What broke your thinking on that one?
    TTT Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good. Ro 12:9

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    +OL remote satellite affiliate 1Way's Avatar
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    Smile

    Nimrod – Here’s an issue I forgot to raise. You probably know the word I am searching for, it’s when a person projects into the past some more recent idea or teaching that does not fit the previous time frame. Is it isogesis (spelling is way off)? Or something like that? Not that you are necessarily doing that, but I do wonder. If you would be so helpful, would you please point out what you believe to be the gospel unto salvation for the OT saints starting from anywhere after God made His covenant relationship with Israel. I realize that the verbiage is different between the OT and the NT, but that is exactly at the point. God said, keep my commandments that you may live ... , and I don’t think that was about physical life.

    Also, you must treat Jesus’ words in the gospels about the gospel message in a strange way than how I treat them. Consider
    Mt 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one [is] good but One, [that is], God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

    Eze 20:11 "And I gave them My statutes and showed them My judgments, ‘which, [if] a man does, he shall live by them.’

    Lu 10:25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 26 He said to him, "What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?" 27 So he answered and said," ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’" 28 And He said to him, "You have answered rightly; do this and you will live."

    Le 18:5 ‘You shall therefore keep My statutes and My judgments, which if a man does, he shall live by them : I [am] the LORD.
    Interesting isn’t is how even specific words can have profound significance. I find it interesting that Jesus did not mutually comply with the young ruler’s specific words “eternal life”, but instead Jesus gave the equivalent saying “enter into life”, or “you will live”. It is refreshing to see God being so faithful to His word.

    Jesus did not come teaching a new way of salvation, He taught and did not overturn the OT teachings. Jesus Christ taught without hesitation nor inconsistency that “keeping the law” was the gospel requirement of salvation (In the previous dispensation). So how do you understand all that?

    Looking forward to your response.
    Last edited by 1Way; March 16th, 2004 at 06:34 AM.
    TTT Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good. Ro 12:9

  6. #96
    Old Timer Nimrod's Avatar
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    Re: Oh, realy, you draw the line, ,,, there

    Originally posted by 1Way

    Nu 15:30 ‘But the person who does [anything] presumptuously, [whether he is] native-born or a stranger, that one brings reproach on the LORD, and he shall be cut off from among his people. 31 ‘Because he has despised the word of the LORD, and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt shall be upon him.’" 32 Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. 33 And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. ...
    35 Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp." 36 So, as the LORD commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died.
    The problem is that a man was deliberately and flagrantly gather sticks in the open on the Sabbath day when God had commanded that no work be done on the Sabbath. This man was most likely the first to break the commandment, so Moses asked God what should the penality be. "Death"! This is to show the importance of keeping the sabbath. We no longer do the death penality for breaking the sabbath, but the importance remains that we should keep sabbath. It would be a sin to break the sabbath.

    I still disagree that the man is sent to hell for breaking the sabbath. I do believe that the OT saint were saved by faith, and could not lose their salvation once they received it.


    Did this answer your question about Numbers 15?

  7. #97
    Old Timer Nimrod's Avatar
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    Thank you 1 Way for answering my questions. Lets take a look at your answers. Only the first 5 in this post.

    Q1)How were OT saints saved?
    A1)It was faith plus works

    Q2)Could Abraham lose his salvation if he didn't circumcize?
    A2)Yes

    Q3)Did God bless the sabbath?
    A3)Yes

    Q4)Is the sabbath for the Jews only?
    A4)Yes, it’s for the Jews and proselyte Jews

    Q5)Out of the ten commandments, which of them do you feel we can break and is not a sin in todays dispensation?
    A5) if you are talking about salvation, then you can brake them all and not sin, if you are talking otherwise, then you can brake none of God’s in force commandments and not sin.



    Originally posted by 1Way
    According to God, if you broke the Sabbath as mentioned by the reference I already gave you, that person went to hell,
    Now 1Way you have told me not to "add" to God's word but nowhere does it state that the person went to hell. Do a concordance search though the Bible on "cut off". Since we both have different views on this, I really don't want to discuss it anymore. I hold that the OT saints were saved by faith. And any works of the Law that they disobeyed was a sin but not eternal hell. You hold that is was faith+plus work. I hear this from Mormons and Catholics, but not Christians, until today. Thank you for being honest in your belief.


    Originally posted by 1Way
    Yes, Abraham could have lost his salvation and life by braking the law, just like Moses almost did.
    Romans 4:5 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

    It wasn't Abrahams works, but his faith that saved him.

    Romans 4:9-10 "Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. "

    Notice 1 Way that it by faith only that came righteousness, not faith plus works.


    Q5)Out of the ten commandments, which of them do you feel we can break and is not a sin in todays dispensation?
    A5)
    Originally posted by 1Way
    God does not impute sin on the saved, so if you are talking about salvation, then you can brake them all and not sin, if you are talking otherwise, then you can brake none of God’s in [b]force[\b] commandments and not sin.
    I haven't asked any questions so far, but this statment of your is confusing, could you please clarify what you mean.

    Qa1) What are God's in force commandments? Out of the 10
    commandments which ones are no longer in force?
    Qa2) Are you saying I can break any sin and still be saved. (I think that is what you meant)
    Qa3) What do you mean by "if you are talking otherwise"? Otherwise to what?

    Ok 3 questions. I need more time to reply to all your statements. somewhat busy right now.

    God Bless

  8. #98
    +OL remote satellite affiliate 1Way's Avatar
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    Nimrod – You’r 96th post was certainly consistent with your views, but it did not barely even approach my question as it relates to my presentation to you on that issue. So no, that does not satisfy our ongoing discussion on that issue. Here is what I said about it, please respond. I’ll place little colorfull highlights where I’d like your specific response if you don’t mind. Notably, I formatted in highlights various aspects of this passaged, and in your response, you seem to indicate that you barely considered but one issue. If you do not voluntarily cover this passage sufficiently on your own, we can go there step by step together. Either way is fine with me.
    Nimrod – Sozo and Turbo are right, the level of incongruity concerning your adherence to keeping God’s commandments (from the previous dispensation) is pretty bizarre. (1a) God, not you, God drew the line at,

    (1b) You shall not add to, or take away from His word and commandements.

    (2) And if you break my Sabbath, you are subject to the death penalty.

    The issue of keeping the Sabbath the way God said it must be kept, was a matter of life and death, salvation and eternal damnation.
    Nu 15:30 ‘But the person who does [anything] presumptuously, [whether he is] native-born or a stranger, that one brings reproach on the LORD, and he shall be cut off from among his people. 31 ‘Because he has despised the word of the LORD, and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt shall be upon him.’" 32 Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. 33 And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. ...
    35 Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp." 36 So, as the LORD commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died.
    .. (3) Maybe you see this teaching as somehow being wrong? (4a) Man does not have the standing to pick and choose which commandments to keep or modify.

    (4b) Even Jesus in the NT said that you do not have the standing to pick and choose which commandments you will observe and keep, you must keep them all, “the greater and the lesser”.

    Yes, the commandments were many and sometimes conflicted, and yes God had mercy for those who could not help but to brake one commandment in order to keep another, (5a) but you are not saying that, are you? (5b) You are altering the commandment to fit your lifestyle, perhaps like that guy picking up sticks thought, like it’s no big deal, it’s not that important, I’ll just pick up some smaller sticks and not heavier logs which might draw more attention.

    (6) If you are not living like a full blown law keeping Jew, then you are breaking the commandments of God, ...

    (7) God was “not” merciful on the man who willfully broke the Sabbath in the desert by picking up sticks. (7) So, by what authority do you overturn the commandments of God? (7) What makes you think you should be exempt from keeping the entire law the way God said you must obey?
    And it’s not just about work on the Sabbath, off hand I don’t know how many commandments of God there are surrounding the Sabboth, but I assume there are many, certainly over a dozen, probably dozens. For instance, as Turbo earlier alluded to, and you did not quite address, do you observe the Sabboth “when” God commanded it to be observed, i.e. Saturday not Sunday? Or what is it more exactly, Friday night to Saturday night (???). Do you walk or travel beyond the distance that is allowed by God? Etc.
    TTT Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good. Ro 12:9

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    +OL remote satellite affiliate 1Way's Avatar
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    Nimrod – You said
    Now 1Way you have told me not to "add" to God's word but nowhere does it state that the person went to hell.
    Context, not words hold the clearest more authoritative meaning possible. Like I already demonstrated for you, and maybe you have not learned yet, even the terms for salvation in the OT, especially in terms of expressing the gospel for salvation was a different set of expressions. Same with not being saved and many other issues.

    I offer you now three times Nu 15 as sufficient evidence that God held obedience to His commandments for salvation. I agree that man can commit a terrible sin and still be saved, and I guess if I was pressed sharply on this issue, I could not say with absolute certainty that he had to go to hell since God let some folks live who should have been put to death for example, so I am not absolutely sure that that particular man went to hell. But, I am sure that God’s teaching on this issue indicates pretty clearly that you could loose your life and your salvation, or said another way, loose your life and not be saved.

    Next you said
    Do a concordance search though the Bible on "cut off". (1) Since we both have different views on this, I really don't want to discuss it anymore. I hold that the OT saints were saved by faith. And any works of the Law that they disobeyed was a sin but not eternal hell. (2) You hold that is was faith+plus work. I hear this from Mormons and Catholics, but not Christians, until today. Thank you for being honest in your belief.
    (1) Actually, that was the reason we both decided to discuss this issue, not because we agreed, but because we disagreed, and I thought it was you who honestly said, “I am curious about what you believe ...” No problem, many people get uncomfortable when others in the body of Christ seek inter-personal accountability for the sake of bible conformity verses manmade tradition. No one is forcing you to continue.

    (2) Not accurate. They mix everything together, the previous way that God governed man, and the new current way. Many if not most cultic beliefs have sprung from confusing law and grace, circumcision and uncircumcision groups and dispensational teachings. The mormons and the Chatholics are cults in my view. As to your implied however loose association you infer between us and the cults, we do not have like beliefs, so your mishandling my beliefs is not appreciated.

    You said
    It wasn't Abrahams works, but his faith that saved him.
    I know that, and I already answered all that which you totally avoided. Again, God did something different with him and with Paul, much like forgiving David, God has the right to make exceptions to His dealings with man. So again, like I already argued and you ignored, your passages do not overturn what God has established, only God has the right to make such exceptions, not you.

    But you do continue this point by saying
    Notice 1 Way that it by faith only that came righteousness, not faith plus works.
    I agree with this scripture, but disagree with you. I’m not saying that God counted keeping the law as a work and not as faith, I’m saying that God required keeping the law as man’s way of displaying his faith. So like I said, faith and works were both an issue of faith, you could never earn your salvation by doing works, but if God required that in order to be a part of His people that you had to keep the law, then God had that right to do that, and in fact that is exactly what He did. Also, you left out the other HALF of that teaching! He was accounted for righteousness for the sake of the circumcision while circumcised and that righteous accounting was because of works of obedience to God’s commandment. (!!!)

    You said
    I haven't asked any questions so far, but this statment of your is confusing, could you please clarify what you mean.
    Oh, that’s nice, you asked of me to look up all the occurrences of “cut off” (BRB) in the OT, and I ask of you to consider impute(d) sin, and it’s 186 to 2. Chuckles Pretty steep odds I’d say. Oh, I forgot, my concordance is computerized and yours is probably paper, mine is dynamic and terribly functional, but yours is probably linear and very limited in functionality especially when it comes to more than single word searches. I highly suggest you spend anywhere from zero to $40 and be able to find what you are looking for. My free OLB lets me even do searches of a word where the second word is user selectable in terms of how many verses away it may be found. I can search for original words and strongs numbers and various translations and reference works, and even search numerous translations at once.

    You apparently are not familiar with grace teachings or if you were, you would never had asked that question. We who are not under the law, are presented to God blameless, we are clothed in the righteousness of Christ because the law was nailed to the cross on our behalf. God does not impute sin to Jesus, nor does He imput sin to us who are in Jesus. Just as the widow is no longer bound to the law to not marry another because of death, she is free to marry another and no one can say she is sinning because there is no law that binds (is in force against) her.

    All these and more from God’s rusty word, opps, glorious word, rusty in your case.

    You said
    Qa1) What are God's in force commandments? Out of the 10
    commandments which ones are no longer in force?
    Qa2) Are you saying I can break any sin and still be saved. (I think that is what you meant)
    Qa3) What do you mean by "if you are talking otherwise"? Otherwise to what?
    Qa1) Like I said, all of them if you are talking about salvation. Otherwise we are only under the in force commandments of God for this dispensation, generally, we do not look to the old dead law to consider sin once we are saved, we are not law keepers, we are in Christ, we walk according to the spirit, we have the mind of Christ, we obey the commandments that God has given us which supercede the laws that we are no longer under.

    Qa2) Yes, our great salvation is not what Jesus did plus, it’s by Christ’s work alone.

    Qa3) Otherwise from the consideration of salvation, meaning every other consideration. For example. Although saved, we can and do sin, even though God does not count it as sin against us for the sake of salvation, we are without sin. But in all other ways of considering our moral behavior, if and when we do what is a otherwise called a sin, we hurt ourselves and/or we hurt others, and we always hurt/offend God. God does not want us to be carnal and sinful, He wants to bless us and be pleased with us, so because we want to bless God and love and honor God, we should want to please Him and not oppose Him.

    Also, when we get to heaven, there will be eternal rewards to deal with. I mostly believe that this has to do with people and relationships and how we lived a life for God or against Him. Such that of course, any and all sins that we do even while saved will count against us and not for us. Here is God’s word on that.
    (1Co 3:11-16 NKJV)
    “11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation [with] gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on [it] endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. 16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and [that] the Spirit of God dwells in you?”
    So the same basic morality exists in both dispensations, it’s always wrong to murder and do evil, but our salvation is not of works, yet theirs used to be a faith that required works to be included, keeping the law was not optional to be included in God’s people (=salvation).

    You said
    I need more time to reply to all your statements. somewhat busy right now.
    LOL, no problem. We all have our rough edges but overall you seem like a sharp character. Also your way more concise than I am, which goads me well. Take it light and do what you can do. I’m currently enjoying a brief interlude of exceptional posting freedom because of being unemployed. But that is another story.
    TTT Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good. Ro 12:9

  10. #100
    Old Timer Nimrod's Avatar
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    Hello there 1Way. As you can see every post I send, I have two more to answer. I can't continue like this because it is mathematically impossible. Therefore we will stick to one topic and finish it then move to the next. From reading your last posts, you really want to stay with the Number 15:30, you think you have something on me, but really it is just a disagreement, so lets there until you are satisified. There is so many things I would like to spend time on. Like why Jonah could be considered a false prophet, the faith of Abraham etc.

    So here is another feable attempt to answer your questions.

    You said
    (1a) God, not you, God drew the line at,
    Yes, that is why we live by His Word.
    2 Timothy 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

    You said
    (1b) You shall not add to, or take away from His word and commandements.
    Yes I agree.
    Deut 4:2 "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you."

    You said
    (2) And if you break my Sabbath, you are subject to the death penalty.
    Yes I agree
    Exodus 31:14 "Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people."

    You said
    The issue of keeping the Sabbath the way God said it must be kept, was a matter of life and death, salvation and eternal damnation.
    I disagree about losing salvation and eternal damnation.

    But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people. 31 Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him. 32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. 33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. 34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. 35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. 36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.
    a)he has despised the word of the LORD
    b)that soul shall be cut off from among his people

    Well the man died alright. I just don't see how this man became eternally condemned.


    You said
    (3) Maybe you see this teaching as somehow being wrong?
    No I don't

    You said
    (4a) Man does not have the standing to pick and choose which commandments to keep or modify.
    That is correct
    Duet 5:32 "Ye shall observe to do therefore as the LORD your God hath commanded you: ye shall not turn aside to the right hand or to the left."

    You said
    (4b) Even Jesus in the NT said that you do not have the standing to pick and choose which commandments you will observe and keep, you must keep them all, “the greater and the lesser”.
    I am sorry, I don't have "the greater and the lesser" as a quote in my Bible.
    Qb1)Which verse are you referring to?

    You said
    Yes, the commandments were many and sometimes conflicted, and yes God had mercy for those who could not help but to brake one commandment in order to keep another,

    Qb2)Could you please provide examples for this statement? Thanks.

    You said
    (5a) but you are not saying that, are you?
    I don't know. Am I?

    You said
    (5b) You are altering the commandment to fit your lifestyle, perhaps like that guy picking up sticks thought, like it’s no big deal, it’s not that important, I’ll just pick up some smaller sticks and not heavier logs which might draw more attention.
    Picking up sticks on the Sabbath is a sin. I believe God is stating that we are not to WORK on the sabbath. During that time picking up sticks was considered working. Moses asked God what he should do. And you agreeed that God gets to choose when to be merciful and He wasn't on this issue. God was not merciful to this man, so I say don't work on the sabbath.

    You said
    (6) If you are not living like a full blown law keeping Jew, then you are breaking the commandments of God, ...
    I do not live like a full blown Jew, some of the Jewish laws are not needed anymore. For example the sacrifical law. But you are correct that I do break the commandments of God.
    1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. Even though I am saved (OSAS). I still sin, it is impossible for me to live a sinless life here during this lifetime. So yes I do break the Sabbath and in doing so I commit a sin.

    You said
    (7) God was “not” merciful on the man who willfully broke the Sabbath in the desert by picking up sticks.
    No He was not. I beleive He was showing Israel how important to follow His commands.

    You said
    (7) So, by what authority do you overturn the commandments of God?
    I don't.

    You said
    (7) What makes you think you should be exempt from keeping the entire law the way God said you must obey?
    Keeping the Law or doing the best you can is for Santification, not Justification. No one is righteous for keeping the Law.
    Isaiah 64:6 "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away."

    This is why I delight in the law of the LORD...
    Psalms 1:2-3 "But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night. 3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper."

    Shall we make the Law void because we are saved by grace? I say God forbid
    Romans 3:31 "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law."

    You said
    And it’s not just about work on the Sabbath, off hand I don’t know how many commandments of God there are surrounding the Sabboth, but I assume there are many, certainly over a dozen, probably dozens.
    I suggest we should check them all out.

    You said
    For instance, as Turbo earlier alluded to, and you did not quite address, do you observe the Sabboth “when” God commanded it to be observed, i.e. Saturday not Sunday?Or what is it more exactly, Friday night to Saturday night (???).
    Qb3) When did God command the Sabbath to be on Saturday and Sunday? References in the Bible would be nice.

    You said
    Do you walk or travel beyond the distance that is allowed by God? Etc.
    I am afraid to say that I am sure I have. Good point, I'll be more careful next time.
    John 8:11 "And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more."

    Praise God!

    Now to part 2

    You said speaking about understanding Scriptures
    Context, not words hold the clearest more authoritative meaning possible.
    I am glad to hear that from you 1Way, all too often I hear dispensationalist say that they "interpret scripture LITERALLY except when absurb". We are making progress!!!

    You said
    I offer you now three times Nu 15 as sufficient evidence that God held obedience to His commandments for salvation.
    No I am afraid you did not, you have not shown me. Yes God wants obedience to His Law but it is not for salvation. Here we disagree and we can agree on disagreeing. No need to get angry, we are two Christians discussing an issue.

    You said referring to the man picking up the sticks, and now you are not absolutely sure he went to hell. Earlier you said Numbers 15 has sufficient evidence that God held obedience to His commandments for salvation. 1Way take a look at this, it's not consistent.
    so I am not absolutely sure that that particular man went to hell. But, I am sure that God’s teaching on this issue indicates pretty clearly that you couldloose your life and your salvation, or said another way, loose your life and not be saved.
    Now you changed from absolutely to "could".

    OK, we are disagreeing on this. You feel strongly that the Word makes it clear that you can/could lose your salvation. You have stated your point.

    I said
    (2) You hold that is was faith+plus work. I hear this from Mormons and Catholics
    Your reply
    The mormons and the Catholics are cults in my view. As to your implied however loose association you infer between us and the cults, we do not have like beliefs, so your mishandling my beliefs is not appreciated.
    I never called your system a cult, all I said that the "faith+works" issue is found in Roman Catholicism and Mormonism. That was the only similiarity I drew. I am sorry for making similiarites between false religions and your system. I'll refrain.


    I said
    It wasn't Abrahams works, but his faith that saved him.
    You said
    I know that, and I already answered all that which you totally avoided.
    Actually you said it was faith+works
    Q2 - Yes, Abraham could have lost his salvation and life by breaking the law, just like Moses almost did.
    TO me this statment says, Abraham can lose his salvation if he does no "work"(circumcision). So Abraham, to you, was saved by faith+works yet the Word of God said it was by His faith, then your reply is that God made an exception for Abraham therefore making His salvation by faith alone. IN summary Abraham being the father of two people, was saved by faith, or faith+works. God decides and has the right to make exceptions.

    As you can see I am having a hard time understanding your position.
    Qb2) Does the Scriptures say that Abraham was saved by faith?
    Qb3) Does the Scriptures say that Abraham was saved by faith+works?


    You said
    I’m saying that God required keeping the law as man’s way of displaying his faith. So like I said, faith and works were both an issue of faith, you could never earn your salvation by doing works, but if God required that in order to be a part of His people that you had to keep the law, then God had that right to do that, and in fact that is exactly what He did.
    So God defined faith of Abraham as "faith+works". Interesting.


    I said
    Qa1) What are God's in force commandments? Out of the 10
    commandments which ones are no longer in force?
    You answered
    Qa1) Like I said, all of them if you are talking about salvation. Otherwise we are only under the in force commandments of God for this dispensation, generally, we do not look to the old dead law to consider sin once we are saved, we are not law keepers, we are in Christ, we walk according to the spirit, we have the mind of Christ, we obey the commandments that God has given us which supercede the laws that we are no longer under.
    I agree that keeping the Law or doing the Law, no one is saved under. But I am not talking about Salvation. I am asking about is it sin to break any of the ten commandments in the current dispensation?

    Qb4)Not talking about salvation, of the ten commandments, which one(s) can we break as believers in Christ, saved by Grace, and will not be considered a sin?

    Qb5) Which commandment(s) of the ten, does the new superceding commandments of Christ voids?




    I said
    Qa3) What do you mean by "if you are talking otherwise"? Otherwise to what?
    Your answer
    Qa3) Otherwise from the consideration of salvation, meaning every other consideration. For example. Although saved, we can and do sin, even though God does not count it as sin against us for the sake of salvation, we are without sin.
    1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
    continued....
    [QUOTE]

    ---------------------------------------
    Questions:
    Qb1)Which verse are you referring to?(about the "lesser and greater")
    Qb2) Does the Scriptures say that Abraham was saved by faith?
    Qb3) Does the Scriptures say that Abraham was saved by faith+works?
    Qb4) Not talking about salvation, of the ten commandments, which one(s) can we break as believers in Christ->saved by Grace, and will not be considered a sin?
    Qb5) Which commandment(s) of the ten, does the new superceding commandments of Christ voids?

    God Bless

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    Old Timer Nimrod's Avatar
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    Jonah a false prophet?

    I believe that neither God, Jonah, or anyone else during that time felt Jonah was a false prophet. All I am saying is from the Word of God, one could think that.

    Deut 18:20-22 " But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. 21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? 22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him. "
    Here we find in the Scriptures what to do with a person who is speaking for the LORD and it came not to pass. We are to kill that prophet.

    Now what did Jonah say?

    Jonah 3:4 "And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown....

    Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not. "
    So what Jonah said did not come to pass. Nineveh was not overthrown. Somehow those people in Nineveh believed that it was God speaking to them through Jonah. Scriptures is silent on this. Nevertheless I believe noone at that time felt Jonah was a false prophet. Jonah was angry or mad for God not destroying Nineveh, but I doubt that had anything to do with him thinking people might kill him for being a false prophet. I think Jonah just wanted those people to be overthrown.

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    Friendly Neighborhood Admin Turbo's Avatar
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    Nimrod, God changed his mind about destroying Nineveh because the they repented of their wickedness, just as He said He would in Jeremiah 18:

    • The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will repent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will repent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it. Jeremiah 18:7-10


    Jonah was no more a false prophet than Jesus was when He said:
    • Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. Matthew 24:34

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    +OL remote satellite affiliate 1Way's Avatar
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    Smile

    Nimrod – Please forgive this extremely lengthy post. I think that I was fairly brief over each point of our discussion. I even skipped some parts that were somewhat superfluous, but also some parts are redundant because of the same issue being brought up in different ways at different times.

    You missed it again Magoo . And I already understand that you disagree with my take on Nu 15. Ok, I’ll isolate the part that has been beyond your consideration yet I have highlighted it numerous times for your thoughtful consideration, but your right, I did not explain it as much as allude to it, but I’m right for maintaining nothing beyond that all along.

    ‘Because he has despised the word of the LORD, and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt shall be upon him.’"

    Now, I’ll combine this part with it’s surrounding parts.
    • v30 – You are no longer part of God’s people (sounds like a salvation issue to me)
    • v31 – being “completely cut off” (“from God”, not from your subscription to time magazine ) with your “guilt remaining” (completely cut off from God, you are not forgiven, a solid concise description of damnation)
    • vv32-36 – The man died by God’s righteous condemnation for despising the word of the Lord (Jesus says you are “of the devil” because you have no room for His word, generally damning), sinning presumptuously by Braking the Sabbath which was a capitol offense, and his sin remained upon him (this is damnation for his soul, not just his body), he was unforgiven, he lost his life because of sin... (another idea of spiritual damnation)
    The entire context
    Every single idea in that entire passage (just mentioned) denotes eternal not just temporal damnation to one degree or another! The only exception, and I already granted this, is that on an individual basis, God can forgive someone if He wants to, but in this case, the bible clearly indicates that God had no mercy, no compassion, no forgiveness upon him, he was “completely cut off” (from God), his guilt remained, and he is not part of God’s people.

    Just physical death?
    or clear spiritual condemnation!
    My main point for continuation is v.31, and what it means to be completely cut off with your guilt remaining, and how that idea coupled with him not being one of God’s people, and being executed for his sin is a tremendous picture of spiritual condemnation, not just a physical death with involved.

    Thanks for your time on this issue, looking forward to your response, and I agree, other things are at hand, some of which are also very interesting. I could do far better at demonstrating how the those who were under the law in the previous dispensation generally known as the Law, but that is not my specialty. However, “Keep my commandments/word and you shall live”, is hardly just about physical life(!), those were the words of eternal life and salvation prior to the NT Pauline expressions. So I think I am right for suggesting that keeping the law was God’s unambiguous requirement for salvation prior to this dispensation.

    You said
    I am sorry, I don't have "the greater and the lesser" as a quote in my Bible.
    I don’t get you. What do you mean by your bible? I already brought up the ease and power of s/w bible searching in my post 99. But to be fair, there could be hundreds of reasons why you have not enhanced your bible study capabilities, including satisfaction with your present system, etc. Also, you may have not even read/contemplated that idea yet, etc. You can even find numerous really helpful online bible searches that may even use various bible translations and study aids. So I encourage you to broaden your method of bible study, especially if you sincerely want to find these passages that you say you can not find by your own resources, using a paper based concordance is like walking 20 miles instead of driving your car. Expand your horizons, experience growth and ... oh, ok, sorry, ,,, moving on now.

    Greater and lessor, I was partly misleading, sorry, here’s the passages I have in mind.
    Mt 5:19 "Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches [them], he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    (“Least and great”, “laws and law keepers”.)

    Mt 23:23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier [matters] of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.

    (weightier and lighter laws, you must keep them “all”, no neglecting any part of the law, leave none undone, do them all.)
    Qb2) I thought you already did, Jesus broke it. Also, circumcision. I think that the Sabbath and circumcision are probably two of the most prominent features of being included as one of God’s people while in the dispensation of Law. So, consider the fact that on average, it is likely that 1 out of 7 (!!!) Israelites was born on a Thursday. You have to circumcise on the 8th day, so if your child was born on a Thursday, you had to do the work of circumcision on a Sabbath where you were commanded to not work! In order to promote more abundant life, Jesus healed on the Sabbath, etc. Lets say that the good Sameritan found the man lying in the road that was left for dead on a Sabbath day! Would he have not carried taken care of him because the Sabbath says do not work? Of course not, he would have done the right thing. And yes, I realize that I am agreeing with you in a huge way, but that is not the point of this particular issue. If you are keeping some of God’s commandements, then you are under the curse for keeping them all, you do not have the standing to pick and choose which one’s you feel it’s ok to keep and which one’s it’s alright to not keep. Listen to the law oh man, what it says. Rather, listen to God who says do not place yourself under the law.

    You said
    I don't know. Am I?
    If you don’t know, then you are not keeping one law in order to keep another, you must know which law you are keeping in order to brake another, otherwise you are not doing this. Elementary my dear inquisitive.

    You said
    Picking up sticks on the Sabbath is a sin. I believe God is stating that we are not to WORK on the sabbath. During that time picking up sticks was considered working. Moses asked God what he should do. And you agreeed that God gets to choose when to be merciful and He wasn't on this issue. God was not merciful to this man, so I say don't work on the sabbath.
    Oh, I see. Same with David, God decided to forgive him BUT DID NOT overturn the death penalty for capitol offenses. Same with this man, it is theoretically possible that God decided to save this man, but, God’s word indicates no such thing, and even if He did save this man, that does NOT overturn the teaching that dying in your sin is a damnation.

    You said
    But you are correct that I do break the commandments of God.
    1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. Even though I am saved (OSAS). I still sin, it is impossible for me to live a sinless life here during this lifetime. So yes I do break the Sabbath and in doing so I commit a sin.
    Now you just broke another commandment, do not alter God’s word. God says that as a saved person, you are not under the law, the law has died to you, you do not live a life of faith by keeping the law of God, the commandments for the previous dispensation. If you place yourself under that system of faith, then you risk falling from grace and making what Christ did for you of no gain. All those words and commands of God you just broke by suggesting that you should be a law keeper instead of obeying the superceding teachings and commandments given to Paul for this dispensation.

    You said
    Keeping the Law or doing the best you can is for Santification, not Justification. No one is righteous for keeping the Law.
    Pure and false conjecture on your part. Again, by your own admission, you do not have the right to pick and choose which laws to keep, you either have to be a full blown law keeper, sans the sacrificial system which has been fulfilled by Jesus, or you are not under the law at all. Make up your mind which one you are so that I can figure out what you are besides mixed up. :chuckles: God says there are two groups, you seem to want to belong to both as though there are only one group walking on both sides of the fence, ouch!

    Qb3) What are you talking about? I asked you a question and you asked me a strange question that I don’t hardly understand. Do you keep the Sabbath when God says it must be kept? Yes or no. i.e. Saturday not Sunday.

    You said
    I am afraid to say that I am sure I have. Good point, I'll be more careful next time.
    John 8:11 "And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more."

    Praise God!
    Wrong. You first admitted to committing a capitol offense, and then as though you have the standing, you say that next time you’ll be more careful. The reason you did not commit a capitol offense is because in this dispensation we are not under the law, i.e. we are not under the Sabbath commandment. If you put yourself under those laws for faith in God, then you are breaking this dispensation’s commandments/word from God saying not to do that. So you absolutely can not win by doing what you say you can do.

    Also, it’s not praise God, wrong on that one too. Jesus did not forgive her, He did not condemn her to be immediately put to death. Concerning her sin, He said sin no more! I suggest that if she had been caught in adultery, and there was no doubt of her guilt, and they were of their own government, and the government honored God, then she would have been put to death just like the man picking up sticks was.

    As to
    am glad to hear that from you 1Way, all too often I hear dispensationalist say that they "interpret scripture LITERALLY except when absurb". We are making progress!!!
    Don’t over exaggerate, it’s not polite nor necessary. The rule for accepting the literal meaning first is the case for all language, it is not just for bible study. Imagine trying to reverse this tendency and you may know for certain that the literal must be the overriding haulmark of communication. If figures was the first rule, the most common form of communication and the exception was the literal, then no one would know what anyone was saying, and figures would stack on top of and within and under other non-literal speech, and it would all be meaninglessness.

    Secondly, the exception to when a passage should be taken figuratively instead of literally is when the literal does not fit, or it does not conform to the meaning of the wider context.

    And frankly, it IS absurd to suggest a literal meaning that does not fit the wider contextual use. So you contradict reason and logic by disagreeing that a literal absurdity is a good cause to seek a non-literal meaning. I am VERY interested in your response on this issue. The Christian faith is anything but excepting of absurdities, it is a fully rational faith and as such falls perfectly in line with these rational beliefs. Not that you promote absurdity on purpose, but your opposition to understandings that oppose absurdities is bizarre to say the least.

    As to your observation about my different approaches to the man picking up sticks. An exception to a rule does not invalidate the rule. The fact that I do not have absolute knowledge of that man’s eternal abode does not invalidate my claim that the rule for damnation for not keeping God’s law was still in effect.

    You said
    TO me this statment says, Abraham can lose his salvation if he does no "work"(circumcision). So Abraham, to you, was saved by faith+works yet the Word of God said it was by His faith, then your reply is that God made an exception for Abraham therefore making His salvation by faith alone.
    No, God made an exception for Abraham therefore making him exempt from the faith only and the works plus faith for salvation groups. He is not in just one or the other, He is the father of both. God saved people in both groups, so it is certain that God can save one person who is not clearly in only one or the other.

    Qb2&3) Yes, both, he is an exception to both also. He is the father of both groups, he is identified with both groups, you can not lock him into one or the other only. SEE THE FATHER OF BOTH GROUPS TEACHING for more.

    You said
    I agree that keeping the Law or doing the Law, no one is saved under. But I am not talking about Salvation. I am asking about is it sin to break any of the ten commandments in the current dispensation?
    If you are not talking about salvation, then if you brake any in force commandment, then you are sinning. Since I am saved, and I am not under any of the commandments you refer to, I can brake none of the commandments that has superceded those, that is, all teachings for this dispensation, I should break none of those, or else I am sinning.

    You said
    Qb4)Not talking about salvation, of the ten commandments, which one(s) can we break as believers in Christ, saved by Grace, and will not be considered a sin?
    Your question contradicts what I believe to be God’s word, so I can not answer according to your presuppositions as previously stated.

    You said
    Qb5) Which commandment(s) of the ten, does the new superceding commandments of Christ voids?
    Since we are not under any of them, and Christ does not void any of them, but keeps them active for all who are under them, i.e. the dying world, none.

    You said
    Qa3) Otherwise from the consideration of salvation, meaning every other consideration. For example. Although saved, we can and do sin, even though God does not count it as sin against us for the sake of salvation, we are without sin.
    1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
    continued....
    No, John and Paul were not talking about the same issue. God through Paul was teaching that once we are saved, then God says that we are dead to the law, the law no longer applies to us, thus we have no sin. John is arguing against the idea that man does not need a savior, some may say that they have no sin to be saved from. Two very different cases. Also, like I said about this dispensation, I believe that although saved you can sin and still get to heaven. The no sin part is what God says how it is that He considers us for the sake of salvation. Each of these separate teachings is recorded in the bible, I am not making them up.

    G&P

    PS (Again, don’t feel required to respond to

    everthing

    at full length

    and in short order

    I suggest just doing what you can reasonably do, if and when you can. I would appreciate it if you would read and respond to whatever you feel would be helpful, but if you only responded to some or whatever, I have no problem with that. I support a move towards brevity, it’s just that sometimes it is hard to do. Maybe print this out and deal with it over time. I kept it all in one post to help us remain on the same page. But please don’t fault me for being responsive, I understand the need to cover other things and I agree. Thanks for your time and effort and patience.)
    Last edited by 1Way; March 19th, 2004 at 02:56 AM.
    TTT Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good. Ro 12:9

  14. #104
    +OL remote satellite affiliate 1Way's Avatar
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    Nimrod – As to the Jonah and false prophesy. You said
    Deut 18:20-22 " But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. 21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? 22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him. "
    Thank you for pointing out the main aspect of your belief from this passage concerning a false prophet. And I am amazed at how differently one can view a teaching like this, but such is life. Here is my understanding with it’s different focus.
    Deut 18:20-22 " But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. 21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? 22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him. "
    The reason for the charge of being a false prophet is not because a prophesy does not come to pass, Jer 18 and Jonah 3 demonstrate God saying that He does not always bring to pass His own spoken prophetic word. This passage is not about God having the right to contradict what He previously thought and or said He would do, it is about the fault of the prophet who does one of two things.

    1) Lies on behalf of God

    2) Says something is true on behalf of another God

    Then you said
    (1) So what Jonah said did not come to pass. Nineveh was not overthrown. Somehow those people in Nineveh believed that it was God speaking to them through Jonah. (2) Scriptures is silent on this. (3) Nevertheless I believe noone at that time felt Jonah was a false prophet. (4) Jonah was angry or mad for God not destroying Nineveh, but I doubt that had anything to do with him thinking people might kill him for being a false prophet. I think Jonah just wanted those people to be overthrown.
    (1) Right, right, and not quite right. God’s word says
    • quote
      Jon 3:2 "Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and preach to it the message that I tell you."
      end quote
    So it is reasonable to assume that the impetuous for the message would have been gleaned by it’s recipients if the messenger gave any indications that this was what God told him to proclaim. And the bible also indicates that although Jonah was reluctant and not in full unity with God, he did do what God told him to do.

    (2) Not exactly accurate. Like I just said, God also told the prophet to do what He told him to do, and there is no indication that he did otherwise. After all, examine the rest of Jonah to see how willing God was to record his many failings. So it is more than reasonable to assume that along with the message content, came the message origination, that this was a word from almighty God. It is possible, that all Jonah did was open mouth and close his ears to any feed back from the entire nation for several days, but holding to that view seems very unlikely. Also, because of Jonah’s own disdain for the message content in relation to God’s habit of relenting from judgment, I think he probably made it abundantly clear that he was not speaking on his own behalf, he was a prophet of God speaking what God told him to say, not otherwise!

    Common sense relations
    Also, think about his own personal safety and the safety concerns of a nation, an exceedingly wicked nation no less! If you claim to have a message of destruction and your one man against an entire nation, if you deliver that message as though it were you own, I think it would be highly probable that either you would be rejected and ignored, silenced, expelled, or perhaps even be put to death.

    (3) Right, because he did not lie. Surely since the nation listened to God, they were thankful towards Jonah for speaking the truth from God. They believed God that they would perish according to their current standing with God. See verse 9 to know that they accepted the word of God as truth, so they would not have charged Jonah with being a false prophet because he spoke the truth. It is your unbiblical closed theism that you are trying to force into the text that makes your understanding so incongruent.

    (4) Exactly! And such considerations have nothing to do with a prophet being false or not. A prophet is a false prophet because he spoke ,,, falsely.

    Bottom line
    Jonah was not considered a false prophet because he spoke the truth from God’s word. God repented from bringing to pass His own prophesy, and that is no one’s fault, it is part of the glory of God, divine repentance.
    Last edited by 1Way; March 17th, 2004 at 07:31 PM.
    TTT Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good. Ro 12:9

  15. #105
    Old Timer Nimrod's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Turbo
    God changed his mind about destroying Nineveh because the they repented of their wickedness, just as He said He would in Jeremiah 18:

    • The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will repent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will repent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it. Jeremiah 18:7-10
    Hello Turbo, correct me if I am wrong. (I know you would love that!) Jeremiah was written around 627-586 approx. and Jonah was writen around 785-760. How could the people of Nineveh know about the information found in Jeremiah if it hasn't been written yet?

    Your on the right path, but you need to look earlier than Jonah.
    God Bless.

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