Who won Battle Royale X?

Who won Battle Royale X?

  • Samuel Lamerson

    Votes: 19 33.3%
  • Bob Enyart

    Votes: 38 66.7%

  • Total voters
    57

Mustard Seed

New member
Clete said:
I couldn't possibly care less about what you consider to be unwarrented! If you want not to be called a liar and a fool then stop lying and acting foolish. Until then I will call it as I see it and if you don't like it tuff, get over it. My comments are based on the demonstrable facts of your behavior (as I will demonstrate in this post). You, on the other hand, have just admitted that you are intentionally provoking and harassing me as "retribution".

I admit that I am trying to confront you, and in a form, that would be retribution. To my knowledge this forum allows one to defend their character against assaults such as the ones you've leveled on me. It's called lible, and if I get banned for such you should also.


Nearly every single thing you posted earlier in this thread is false and was designed specifically to provoke me.

You have not demonstrated anything of the sort. You see the whole idea of making accusations and not backing them up with any FACTS is what drove such things as the witch trials and the inquisition. You simply say I'm lying and thing they should ban me on the spot, no demonstration of guilt needed, just Clete's word.


Complete fabrication! Not one single syllable of this is true. You've made it all up! That's called lying MS! You are a liar!

Demonstrate such.

This is not only wrong, it is an outright lie! You don't even understand what Presuppositionalism is and yet are pretending that you do and are making statements in public as though you do. That's called lying MS! You are a liar!

Demonstrate such.


I do not hold anything that would remotely qualify as "strict Van Tillian views". Van Til made some brilliant presuppositionally based arguments for the Christian faith but he was as hard core a Calvinist as you could possibly be and I am an equally hard core open theist. Things you would have known had you done 10 minutes worth of real research into the topic I introduced in the other thread.

So you were quoting a hardcore calvinist to prove the open view? Interesting, what other things does Van Till advocate that you don't agree with?

One is not required to prove the self evident MS.

"She's a witch!"

"She turned me into a newt!"


The evidence is clear

Which evidence is clear? You presented evidence?

and the conclusion is sound.

Not "sound".

My challenge for people to prove me wrong belies your accusation that I am "ready to simply dismiss" anything.

No because right after you ask anyone to prove you wrong you say that any who try you'll label as intellecutaly dishonest.

Could someone else please verify that's what he said or am I just seeing things on my computer screen that aren't there?

Further, my system does not allow me to discard anything that might harm my position.

That's all you've attempted to do up to this point so that's all I've really seen of your system.


Again, you do not even understand what a presupposition is never mind what Presuppositionalism is and I don't even consider myself to be a presuppositionalist! I simply think that the system has a hand full of really excellent arguments and so I use them.

Getting better all the time. Now you think you can pick up entire "systems of apologetics" when you need them and drop them when you don't? What of inherent conflicts?


And so again, you pretend to know what you are talking about when you know you do not and that is a lying MS. You are a liar.


Well folowing such "logic" anyone here that talks about God, a being that we cannot really know with our finite brains, would be considered a liar also. I may not have read everything there is to know on every caveat of Christian Apologetics but I do not believe that makes me a liar since I openly admit that I do not know everything. You are the one that is making bold statements and dismissing any need to back them up. Is that because you can't? If you can't then you, by the very definition you just provided, are a liar. And I didn't even have to level the accusation myself.


This is simply nothing but a flat out lie! You have nothing which could possibly substantiate this stupid lie.

This coming from one that's refused to substantiate any of his bold accusations of lying???

You are a huge liar and I will never stop calling you one until you admit it is so and repent.

No, you'll be required to stop calling me such at some point in the future, regardless your desire to continue on.

Now, I gave you repeated chances to engage the actual argument that I brought up in the other thread and you openly refused to do so and so fine. I am not required to debate you or respond to you at all.

I did engage it. You claim I didn't but will not enuciate, in more than the broadest of terms and statements thar rest on the sheer fiat of Clete being the one to utter them, how I didn't, in fact most items I brought up you never even attempted to show them as not being relevant.

You can present all the idiotic arguments on unrelated topics you like and you will no doubt win the approval of other fools (including self proclaimed ones) but I have been posting on this site for a very long time and my posts have consistently been among the most substantive on the entire site (as attested too by others on the site) and I've been among the least likely to bail on a discussion no matter how many times I've had to repeat myself of reclarify a point and so I will happily allow my record to stand for itself. I have no need to prove myself to dishonest pagans like yourself and your little gang of buddies.

You have your right to your high view of yourself and your "righteousness" but I do not have to agree and to simply posit questions, to my knowledge, is not a crime here. Perhapse you can take up a petition to ban me, that's all my ego needs, being the victim of an online witch hunt.



When someone wants to substantively take on my challenge, I will welcome it and respond substantively,

The playing board is not level. Since you decide what is and isn't substantive you're untouchable in what you've "commited" yourself to doing.


but not with you (and now not with fool or Mr. 5020 either, not that either of them would have been capable to doing so anyway).

Excuse me but I'm starting to wonder how a man that claims to be so knowledgable and capable seems to be forgeting a few of the beattitudes.


If you admit your dishonesty both on this thread and on the other and repent of it, I am more than willing to forgive but until that happens, I am not required, nor am I willing to have any further discussions on any topic with you whatsoever.

Amen.

Now, that's it. Do not respond to this post, do not quote me, do not PM me, do not respond to me or engage me in any way. If you do so again, I will simply report your harassment to the moderator and let them deal with it.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Well get reporting and we'll see how your retribution will work.
 

David22

New member
The Incarnation

The Incarnation

STONE said:
Defeated without much difficulty were my words thank you. First let me state that I am not a calvinist so Sam and I would not agree across the board; however we would likely agree more than Bob and I (though Bob and I would and do agree on many issues). Bob did a fine job presenting his material, better than Sam I might add. Bob has also likely spent countless hours preparing the material for this "debate", which he also uses in seminars on the topic. I agree with some of Bob's points in principle also.
Would it be easy to refute ANY one point Bob made? Yes, assuming the hearer's mind is not already closed, otherwise it would be very difficult. Why? Because most of Bob's posts are not especially strong as I have said.

To be fair I am willing to let OV'ers decide which was Bob's strongest specific point he made establishing the open view and I will refute it.

I would like to hear your opinion on Bob's post 8B God the Son Lowered Himself. General Immutability to me is the where the Calvinist looses. How is this not strong?

Stone, I really like the picture you chose! (I can't remember what the technical term used for the picture is) It is beautiful.
David22
 

STONE

New member
Refuting Bob

Refuting Bob

...I think David is right; Bob's case against immutability is his strongest point.
First, to clarify let’s look at Bob’s points simplified from “8B God the Son Lowered Himself “; (if points need editing OV’ers please specify or ask Bob):

A) God becoming man proves God is not unchangeable. (Incarnation crushes immutability -Bob)

B) Jesus sacrificed by forsaking His “owned” divine attributes, knowledge, reputation, and Glory to truly incarnate as man and Savior, proven by Jn 17:5, however with access to “God’s power” as necessary through communion with the Holy Spirit.

C) God is above all relational, good, and loving, equating to a father giving good gifts to their children; His Goodness comprehended even by evil men.

D) Jesus likely did not supernaturally know man’s thoughts (unlike God?), but rather discerned them by wisdom.

E) “Superstition angered Jesus, so He rejected the interpretation that God directed the fall of the Tower of Siloam to kill and punish the worst sinners”

F) Evil results from men and angels who disobey God and has no “greater purpose” behind it.

G) General Immutability is derived from pagan sources.

H) Calvinistic divine goodness appears as filth, cruelty, even incestual rape.

I) Changing/different Gospels are given dispensationally to Jews and Gentiles (My understanding of Bob’s position).
 

STONE

New member
Refuting Bob Enyart

Refuting Bob Enyart

STONE said:
...I think David is right; Bob's case against immutability is his strongest point.
First, to clarify let’s look at Bob’s points simplified from “8B God the Son Lowered Himself “; (if points need editing OV’ers please specify or ask Bob):

A) God becoming man proves God is not unchangeable. (Incarnation crushes immutability -Bob)

B) Jesus sacrificed by forsaking His “owned” divine attributes, knowledge, reputation, and Glory to truly incarnate as man and Savior, proven by Jn 17:5, however with access to “God’s power” as necessary through communion with the Holy Spirit.

C) God is above all relational, good, and loving, equating to a father giving good gifts to their children; His Goodness comprehended even by evil men.

D) Jesus likely did not supernaturally know man’s thoughts (unlike God?), but rather discerned them by wisdom.

E) “Superstition angered Jesus, so He rejected the interpretation that God directed the fall of the Tower of Siloam to kill and punish the worst sinners”

F) Evil results from men and angels who disobey God and has no “greater purpose” behind it.

G) General Immutability is derived from pagan sources.

H) Calvinistic divine goodness appears as filth, cruelty, even incestual rape.

I) Changing/different Gospels are given dispensationally to Jews and Gentiles (My understanding of Bob’s position).
A) God becoming man proves God is not unchangeable. (Incarnation crushes immutability -Bob)
Can God be more than one place at a time? Bob clearly knows God is everywhere at once. Rather than using the term "Son", we know that the Logos became flesh. Did God then not have His WORD at His disposal yet while Jesus was away on Earth; or can the "Trinity" be divided? Simplistically put the WORD can incarnate as Jesus and yet remain in communion with the Father. Anything else would be heresy and the polytheistic falacy understood by Jews about Jesus. There is only one God.
God is still immutable.
The incarnation itself simply proves omnipotence, that God's will is surpreme and He will do as He pleases, and hence is no challenge to Immutability.
 

David22

New member
STONE said:
A) God becoming man proves God is not unchangeable. (Incarnation crushes immutability -Bob)
Can God be more than one place at a time? Bob clearly knows God is everywhere at once. Rather than using the term "Son", we know that the Logos became flesh. Did God then not have His WORD at His disposal yet while Jesus was away on Earth; or can the "Trinity" be divided? Simplistically put the WORD can incarnate as Jesus and yet remain in communion with the Father. Anything else would be heresy and the polytheistic falacy understood by Jews about Jesus. There is only one God.
God is still immutable.
The incarnation itself simply proves omnipotence, that God's will is surpreme and He will do as He pleases, and hence is no challenge to Immutability.

I think in Bob's argument, he indicated that God doesn't have to be everywhere at once. Which makes sense. Biblically, God does not reside in Hell. How could becoming flesh, not indicate change? I don't understand that. When something becomes something different, it changes. I don't know if this is a good example or not, but water that is frozen becomes ice, yet it is still water, but if it remains frozen, it cannot water a plant. It can then melt again and then it can water a plant. But there is no doubt it changes from a liquid to a solid back to a liquid. The ocean causes the ocean floor to change millions of times. Things change, God changed.

My question for you is, if God is truly omnipotent, and that means he can do anything, that is, all powerful, then why did Jesus have to suffer so and die on the cross for our sins. Couldn't God have decided a different path to forgiveness? But since God provided Jesus as the sacrificial lamb, that tells us something about his nature. Surely he would have spared His son if he could have.

Jesus prayed to the Father just as we would pray. In fact, he told us how to pray. If he wasn't human, he would not have had to pray. Right? Jesus in fact said not My will be done but Thy will be done. He was Jesus, not God the Father.

This leads me to the other question I have about God pre-ordaining everything. Do you really believe that a Holy God would pre-ordain that a child be brutally raped and then buried alive, like in the case in Florida. How could he remain Holy if he made that happen? It is clearly man's sin that brings about the unthinkable situations like this case. It grieves God. God hates sin, he wouldn't want to cause/make someone sin. Jesus died to save us from our sins! He doesn't need such a horrible event to bring Glory to Himself. It would be like a firefighter setting fires so that he can put them out again!

What do you think?
 

STONE

New member
David22 said:
I think in Bob's argument, he indicated that God doesn't have to be everywhere at once. Which makes sense. Biblically, God does not reside in Hell. How could becoming flesh, not indicate change? I don't understand that. When something becomes something different, it changes. I don't know if this is a good example or not, but water that is frozen becomes ice, yet it is still water, but if it remains frozen, it cannot water a plant. It can then melt again and then it can water a plant. But there is no doubt it changes from a liquid to a solid back to a liquid. The ocean causes the ocean floor to change millions of times. Things change, God changed.

My question for you is, if God is truly omnipotent, and that means he can do anything, that is, all powerful, then why did Jesus have to suffer so and die on the cross for our sins. Couldn't God have decided a different path to forgiveness? But since God provided Jesus as the sacrificial lamb, that tells us something about his nature. Surely he would have spared His son if he could have.

Jesus prayed to the Father just as we would pray. In fact, he told us how to pray. If he wasn't human, he would not have had to pray. Right? Jesus in fact said not My will be done but Thy will be done. He was Jesus, not God the Father.

This leads me to the other question I have about God pre-ordaining everything. Do you really believe that a Holy God would pre-ordain that a child be brutally raped and then buried alive, like in the case in Florida. How could he remain Holy if he made that happen? It is clearly man's sin that brings about the unthinkable situations like this case. It grieves God. God hates sin, he wouldn't want to cause/make someone sin. Jesus died to save us from our sins! He doesn't need such a horrible event to bring Glory to Himself. It would be like a firefighter setting fires so that he can put them out again!

What do you think?
Good questions but remember I am not a Calvinist. Let's stick to Point A for now and then move to the other points for clarity.

Righteousness (God's will) has no fellowship with unrighteousness (against God's will). Therefore God had to make a way, revealing an example of both his righteousness and his love (Jn 13:8; Jn 15:13) for his children, to restore His children from a fallen state into right relationship with Him; and so with joy He endured the Cross to accomplish His righteousness. The way He did things was wise, perfect, and beautiful.

Saying there is a place where God doesn't exist implies there is existence outside of God. This is unscriptural. Though God can "hide his eyes" from us, the scriptures clearly teach we exist within God Himself.
As I explained the WORD became flesh, but could not be truly divided from the immutable God or be diminished. This does not mean God could not "incarnate" any way he pleases. The WORD incarnated according to God's will as flesh, being subject to the same temptations as we are, but without sin. Why without sin? Because the immutable and righteous God was dwelling in the man Jesus overcoming His incarnated flesh nature by His Righteous nature. The Logos was with God (immutable) and With man subject to temptation by His Will (omnipotent).
 

David22

New member
STONE said:
Good questions but remember I am not a Calvinist. Let's stick to Point A for now and then move to the other points for clarity.

Righteousness (God's will) has no fellowship with unrighteousness (against God's will). Therefore God had to make a way, revealing an example of both his righteousness and his love (Jn 13:8; Jn 15:13) for his children, to restore His children from a fallen state into right relationship with Him; and so with joy He endured the Cross to accomplish His righteousness. The way He did things was wise, perfect, and beautiful.

Saying there is a place where God doesn't exist implies there is existence outside of God. This is unscriptural. Though God can "hide his eyes" from us, the scriptures clearly teach we exist within God Himself.
As I explained the WORD became flesh, but could not be truly divided from the immutable God or be diminished. This does not mean God could not "incarnate" any way he pleases. The WORD incarnated according to God's will as flesh, being subject to the same temptations as we are, but without sin. Why without sin? Because the immutable and righteous God was dwelling in the man Jesus overcoming His incarnated flesh nature by His Righteous nature. The Logos was with God (immutable) and With man subject to temptation by His Will (omnipotent).

Could you explain your position that "the scriptures clearly teach we exist within God himself."? What scriptures are you referring to? Thanks.
David22
 

David22

New member
Stone, since this is a thread about who won Battle Royale X, should we continue this elswhere? I am sure the viewers are wanting to know what people think about Bob and Dr. Lamerson. If, so, I am new here and do not know how to move this little debate but I would like others to be involved if they wish.
 

STONE

New member
David22 said:
Could you explain your position that "the scriptures clearly teach we exist within God himself."? What scriptures are you referring to? Thanks.
David22
Start with Acts 17:27-28
 

STONE

New member
"That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." Acts 17:27-28
"And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist." Col 1:17

And also to a lesser degree these two combined verses:
"Psa 66:9 Which holdeth our soul in life"
"Psa 36:9 For with thee is the fountain of life"
 
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