toldailytopic: The Catholic Church: God's official church? Or, theology gone astray?

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BabyChristian

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There has been no Protestant groups that chose to look back and include the gospel of Thomas, or Peter, or the epistle of Clement. Protestants made changes in doctrine, not scripture. I follow the Episcopalian Church because I believe in its doctrine, not in a different gospel.

Have you read the gospel of Thomas?

I can see why certain things were not included.

Jesus allowed a woman that bled for 12 years to touch him even though she was unclean and she was healed. Jesus was for treating women fairly and went against many of the Jewish teachings and the gospel of Thomas goes against what Jesus taught when it states,

"Simon Peter said to them, "Let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy of life." Jesus said, "I myself shall lead her in order to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every woman who will make herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven."

This teaching doesn't fit what we know of Peter. Paul tells us that Peter's wife was also a believer [1 Cor 9:5]. It is hard to accept that Peter thought women were not "worthy of life."

And if Peter did believe such a notion, what business has he being considered the "rock" and the leader of the RCC?
 

Gurucam

Well-known member
The Church founded by Christ is the Catholic Church.

Peter's church is a Moses-ian church. Indeed the Catholic church seems to be the church of Peter. Peter's church was the continuation of Moses' church. It was to be founded on the Gospel of circumcision which is essentially the O.T. and the Ten Commandments. Therefore the Catholic church which is essentially Peter's church is a Moses-ian church.

However the Catholic church seem to be essential basis of all churches in tradition Christianity. Traditional Christianity is indeed not Christianity, at all. Traditional Christianity is simply Moses-ism masquerading as Christianity. However the absolute very great majority of people are called to Christianity there. And the absolute very great majority of these, err and are not chosen, they are do not become Christians and are not Christians. And this seems to be reason why Jesus' prophesy, "many are called to Christianity but few chosen", becomes fulfilled.

O.T. and the laws were divinely given not as revelations of Truth but for the sole and temporary purpose of guiding and managing righteous seeking unaware people until they become 'born again' (i.e. awaken to their spirit).

Then such graduates drop the Gospel of circumcision which was committed onto Peter and embrace the Gospel of un-circumcision as committed onto Paul. To embrace the gospel of un-circumcision is to embrace the Spirit of Jesus Christ as discerned within one's heart or spirit. This is to become a Christian. This is not possible until one looses the veil over one's heart, i.e. until one becomes 'born again'. One cannot search one's heart to discern precisely what the Spirit has in mind for one unless the veils over one's heart is removed (re. Romans: 8 verses: 26 & 27). One cannot be like Jews as mentioned in 2 Corinthians: 3 verses: 15 & 16

To appease unruly, violent, powerful and self righteous Moses-ians, Jesus (seemingly under duress) added the two love commandments (two more laws) to the previous ten. Jesus was talking about love and being led by love. However the Moses-ians of those day (everyone except Jesus' disciples) were strangers to love and love's urgings. This was so because they (everyone except Jesus' disciples) still had veils over their respective hearts within which love's urgings are discerned.

Fact is that one who is unaware (of his spirit) do not and cannot know love or its urgings because of their veiled hearts. Things of God which include love's urgings are not discerned through our physical side, these are discerned only through our heart or spirit which, obviously, must be 'unveiled'. The unaware must become 'born again' (awakened to his spirit) in order to come into awareness of love and its urgings.

Paul's church is the Christian church. It is for those with awakened hearts. It is for those who discern precisely what the Spirit of Jesus Christ has in mind for them from within their respective hearts and are unconditionally obedient to same.

It is not a physical church. It is held together by member's unconditional obedience to precisely what the Spirit of Jesus Christ has in mind for each of them, as discerned by each of them, from within their respective hearts. Paul's church is the body of Christ.

The body of Christ is people living in absolute God given freedom, liberty and justification because they are led, unconditionally, by precisely what the Spirit of Jesus Christ has in mind for them as discerned by each of them from within their own hearts or spirits. They are not under laws nor are they under obligation to any laws, other than the judicial laws of their land. This is the Gospel of un-circumcision which was committed onto Paul

The Gospel of un-circumcision is revealed in full glory with total N.T. supporting revelations in:

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63698

Go ahead click it.

This is the end of the line. :rapture: :rapture: :rapture: :rapture: :rapture: :rapture:
 
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godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
And your Acts 2 church is? :rotfl:

There is no perfect church, including any local Pauline church or early church in Acts. There is the perfect, universal, invisible church of Christ, but there is no perfect local expression since humans make them up.

We are not saved by an official church or group, but through faith in a person, the Lord Jesus Christ. This is the important truth, not trying to limit God's people to one manmade organization.

If I thought there was a more biblical (not perfect) church in belief and practice than Pentecostal, evangelical ones, I would have found them by now.

Since the Bible has hundreds of verses about local churches/ecclesiology, which local church do you fellowship with for corporate worship, instruction, fellowship, evangelism, service, mission, receiving and giving of needed gifts that are not resident in one person, etc.?

I attend Evangel Assembly. Together we are impacting our lives, community, and the world through our pooled time, energy, money, etc.

Is this your pastor (you)? http://www.dynamicforces.com/images/LoneRangerTPBMassCover.jpg
 

jgarden

BANNED
Banned
The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for February 12th, 2010 10:33 AM


toldailytopic: The Catholic Church: God's official church? Or, theology gone astray?


It is reported that approximately 38,000 Christian denominations (excluding The church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster) currently exist - all claiming to have "the inside track" when it comes to interpreting the Word of God.

The truth is that nobody has "cornered the market" or established a monopoly on interpreting the Word of God and it very well may be that true Christians can be found in most, if not all of these 38,000+ denominations.
 

Gurucam

Well-known member
The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for February 12th, 2010 10:33 AM


toldailytopic: The Catholic Church: God's official church? Or, theology gone astray?






Take the topic above and run with it! Slice it, dice it, give us your general thoughts about it. Everyday there will be a new TOL Topic of the Day.
If you want to make suggestions for the Topic of the Day send a Tweet to @toldailytopic or @theologyonline or send it to us via Facebook.


:idea: ---Indeed the Catholic church is not God's official church, for any thing.

It is neither the church which was committed onto Peter nor the one committed onto Paul.

It is therefore neither a Moses-ian church nor a Christian church.

However this church have been falsely presented and projected to be a Christian church.
---




00
:idea: oooIt is not about 'theology gone astray'.

It is about 'lettered oriented' people playing Christians.

It is about unaware (i.e. 'dead within' and/or 'lettered oriented'),
self righteous, ego driven people playing God and
misguiding the great majority of people who are called to Christianity,
in their churches and in what passes for Christianity, more or less everywhere else.

They seem to be one's responsible for Jesus prediction,
"many are called to Christianity but few chosen".
Jesus did confirmed also that those who do not know Truth err.
And indeed those who err are not among the chosen few
(i.e. few who are saved and chosen)

The question arises can the place where the absolute great majority
of aspiring Christians go for Christian knowledge, have it right.
This seems very unlikely, if the result is many will be called and few chosen.
o



 
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Sheila B

Member
Well, as we shall all stand before the tribunal of Christ, I for one feel confidant that I am in the right place.
The very nature of the unrest to the dilemma of catholicism is interesting, is it not?
 

Adoration

New member
The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for February 12th, 2010 10:33 AM


toldailytopic: The Catholic Church: God's official church? Or, theology gone astray?






Take the topic above and run with it! Slice it, dice it, give us your general thoughts about it. Everyday there will be a new TOL Topic of the Day.
If you want to make suggestions for the Topic of the Day send a Tweet to @toldailytopic or @theologyonline or send it to us via Facebook.



Yes! Jesus is God.

Matt 16
18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Have you read the gospel of Thomas?

I can see why certain things were not included.

Jesus allowed a woman that bled for 12 years to touch him even though she was unclean and she was healed. Jesus was for treating women fairly and went against many of the Jewish teachings and the gospel of Thomas goes against what Jesus taught when it states,

"Simon Peter said to them, "Let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy of life." Jesus said, "I myself shall lead her in order to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every woman who will make herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven."

This teaching doesn't fit what we know of Peter. Paul tells us that Peter's wife was also a believer [1 Cor 9:5]. It is hard to accept that Peter thought women were not "worthy of life."

And if Peter did believe such a notion, what business has he being considered the "rock" and the leader of the RCC?

There is no way Jesus would have ever said to make her female. Of course it isn't true. They just put his name on it because he was a follower. Thomas did not author it.

There is no perfect church, including any local Pauline church or early church in Acts. There is the perfect, universal, invisible church of Christ, but there is no perfect local expression since humans make them up.

What is imperfect about those that believe in Christ and confess his gospel of 1 Corinthians 15, and that he was raised for us?

Since the Bible has hundreds of verses about local churches/ecclesiology, which local church do you fellowship with for corporate worship, instruction, fellowship, evangelism, service, mission, receiving and giving of needed gifts that are not resident in one person, etc.?

And do those hundreds of verses from Paul say there is a way other than Romans 10:9, as I posted above?

I attend Evangel Assembly. Together we are impacting our lives, community, and the world through our pooled time, energy, money, etc.

I used to go to AOG. Then I read the rest of the Bible after Acts 2. And what led up to it. Feel like trying to explain away Romans 11:11 today in relation to Acts 2, or will you ignore and redirect as usual?
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
There is no way Jesus would have ever said to make her male. Of course it isn't true. They just put his name on it because he was a follower. Thomas did not author it.



What is imperfect about those that believe in Christ and confess his gospel of 1 Corinthians 15, and that he was raised for us?



And do those hundreds of verses from Paul say there is a way other than Romans 10:9, as I posted above?



I used to go to AOG. Then I read the rest of the Bible after Acts 2. And what led up to it. Feel like trying to explain away Romans 11:11 today in relation to Acts 2, or will you ignore and redirect as usual?
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
T


What is imperfect about those that believe in Christ and confess his gospel of 1 Corinthians 15, and that he was raised for us?



And do those hundreds of verses from Paul say there is a way other than Romans 10:9, as I posted above?



I used to go to AOG. Then I read the rest of the Bible after Acts 2. And what led up to it. Feel like trying to explain away Romans 11:11 today in relation to Acts 2, or will you ignore and redirect as usual?

Individual salvation is perfect in Christ. The gospel is perfect. You and I and all redeemed believers are imperfect in ourselves (we are not sinless in every thought, word, motive, deed). Any given local church contains redeemed, but imperfect people. No one church has perfect doctrine and perfect practice, including the early church and all Pauline churches were division, sin, etc. was present (read the Bible and show up at any given church today...your presence will make it imperfect despite his perfect salvation in us).

We agree about the gospel. What is your point?

I have explained Rom. 11:11 before...it reflects that God's sovereign choice is fulfilled in Gentiles in response to Paul anticipating concerns about what Israel's role was in light of the acceptance of Gentiles; the Jews falling was not beyond recovery and their restoration will take place in the future; in the meantime, a remnant exists by grace; through this stumbling vs fall, salvation was offered to Gentiles and Israel was made jealous; the world was being blessed through Gentiles now/Israel originally to have this role; then, in the future, Israel will come in and be a blessing to Gentiles again before the return of Christ). You proof text your view, but hundreds of non-MAD dispensational authors do not have a problem understanding it in light of Rom. 9-11 (you and I actually agree on eschatology, etc. as dispensationalists vs covenantalists, just not on the details of everything...even MAD proponents here do not agree on everything).

You have moved from a more biblical position to a defective one, whether you can see it or not.
 

csuguy

Well-known member
In my mind, there is no "official church" persay - for all churches on earth are run by men, none of them is perfect. There is, however, a single catholic church (little 'c') - a church that is not defined by denominational lines or matters of dogma. This church is made up of true believers who truly devote their lives to Christ.

I believe that the proto-orthodox fathers were true Christians and part of this catholic church, as were/are many of the RCC - but the RCC is man's invention. Indeed, the RCC is founded upon perhaps the single most corrupting element in human history - politics. While there is much truth in the RCC, there is also much corruption (as there is in any denomination).

This corruption is found early on in the RCC's history. Namely, once the empire was officially declared Christian - the churches started to demand that the state enforce their dogma and exile thier theological opponents. Rather than debate logically, they wanted to resort to political power to solve their theological differences. Constantine viewed the fractions in the church as being worse than war (or something like that - forget the exact quote) and so he forced the church to create an official set of dogmas for all ---> Nicene Council.
 

Gurucam

Well-known member
It is reported that approximately 38,000 Christian denominations (excluding The church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster) currently exist - all claiming to have "the inside track" when it comes to interpreting the Word of God.

The truth is that nobody has "cornered the market" or established a monopoly on interpreting the Word of God and it very well may be that true Christians can be found in most, if not all of these 38,000+ denominations.

Seems quite possible, but these will be few. That is, if we are to recognized and/or accept Jesus' prophesy, "many are called to Christianity but few chosen".

To get an idea as to how many is "a few" or to put "a few" into Christian perspective, we have to note:

When Jesus walked on earth as a man, from all the great multitudes of people who He encountered, only His twelve disciples were chosen to get confirmation of Truth. And only they got same. These few where just twelve from the possible hundreds of thousands who He encountered during His physical trek on earth.

This is confirmed unequivocally by Jesus in Matthews: 13 verses: 10 to 17.Jesus confirmed that people err when they do not know Truth. When people err because they do not know Truth they cannot be Christians, they are not saved or chosen.

It must be clear that "most, if not all of these 38,000+ Christian denominations" all share and are promoting an erroneous and indeed, all pervasive and common and seriously misinterpreted idea of Truth or scriptures. They would have to be misguiding the absolute great majority of people who come to them for Truth or Christianity.

1. How else would "many be called to Christianity but few chosen"?
2. And indeed how would these great masses of aspiring Christians err and not be chosen?
3. And how else would "many false prophets come in Jesus' name and misguide many"?

How else would Jesus be correct on these three counts if this is not happening inside, "most, if not all of these 38,000+ Christian denominations"?

To face this fact, with an open mind, is to open one self up to Truth, now in these final days, in the fullness of time.

You seem preoccupied with the mission to reassert the relevance of your church so that you can return to your comfort zone. Are you prepared to jeopardize your salvation and deliverance for short term comfort?
 
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Trumpetfolker

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@ NickM

@ NickM

Ro 11: 11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
This passage fills out many aspects of the words of Moses and Jesus. First, look at the phrase "provoke them to jealousy".
This, Paul sited, specifically, to draw attention to the words of a prophecy of Moses- one of his sources the extent of which was limited to the Old Testament prophets.
Deuteronomy 32:21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation <01471>.
This prophecy tells us that there will be a nation/goi/gentile made of a composed of men who were not a people, and, that that nation/goi/gentile would provoke the Old covenant people.
The nation/goi/gentile part is important because God's word to Abraham and Jacob is that He would make them a nation and a company of nations using this goi word.
Genesis 12: 1 ¶ Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto a land that I will shew thee: 2 And I will make of thee a great nation <01471>, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

Genesis 17:1 ¶ And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. 2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. 3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations <01471>. 5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations <01471> have I made thee. 6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations <01471> of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

Genesis 17:16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations <01471>; kings of people shall be of her.

Genesis 35:10 And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel. 11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation <01471> and a company of nations <01471> shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;
Jacob prophesied that fulfillment of God's word to make Israel a company of nations would be fulfilled through Ephraim who received the name, Israel.
Genesis 48:16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth. 17 And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father’s hand, to remove it from Ephraim’s head unto Manasseh’s head. 18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head. 19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations <01471>.
Isaiah prophesied that Ephraim would become "not a people".
Isaiah 7:8 For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people.
So, Ephraim/Israel was spread out among all the nations.
Hosea 8:8 Israel is swallowed up: now shall they be among the Gentiles <01471> as a vessel wherein is no pleasure. 9 For they are gone up to Assyria, a wild *** alone by himself: Ephraim hath hired lovers.10 Yea, though they have hired among the nations <01471>, now will I gather them, and they shall sorrow a little for the burden of the king of princes.

Hosea 9:16 Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb. 17 My God will cast them away, because they did not hearken unto him: and they shall be wanderers among the nations <01471>.
However, it was this same Ephraim/Israel which the Lord promised to marry again.
Hosea 2:19 And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies. 20 I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the LORD.
Paul understood all this, for he invited the Jews to come and be married to the same Lord to which he had betrothed the Corinthian Church.
2 Corinthians 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Romans 7: 1 ¶ Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? 2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. 4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
To all this, Peter agrees when he addresses a people who, formerly, were not a people (obviously, not the Jews),...
Peter 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
...and, a people who had not had mercy (again, obviously, not the Jews).
Hosea 1: 6 And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away. 7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.

Hosea 2:23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.
When you read the scripture illuminated by the same Spirit of Christ that spoke to the prophets as the apostles did, you pick this stuff up.
 
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