The Trinity

Nihilo said:

I'm not really sure. I just know that based upon the definition of indulgence, we can grant them to each other, when we forgive those who trespass against us. :idunno:

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That's not a bad answer. By implication then, if we were to forgive others perfectly, we might be granted perfect indulgence from Christ and never step foot into Purgatory?

Thank you for the clarification.

Indeed all will be raised from the dead; the wheat to the barn(the abode of GOD) and the chaff to the fire(eternal destruction).

I misspoke, and you brought it to my attention with scripture and without calling me a worker of iniquity.

Thanks again,

Though we don't always agree, your general seeming demeanor is pleasant to deal with, leaving the opportunity for correction and edification.

Might we all again, learn from your example in this, your demeanor.

peace friend

peace

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Wow, that's a type of response you don't see very often in these forums. Thank you. The greater victory in this environment is taming our tongue and loving our enemies. Or as [MENTION=83]Nihilo[/MENTION] was saying, forgiving those that trespass against us. That's more important than being on the right side of any particular detail.

Last night I hit a blank and couldn't think of a more relevant passage but this just clicked now:

Matthew 10:15 KJV
(15) Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Sodom was destroyed by God with eternal fire, but Jesus said it would be more tolerable for them in the day of judgment. The way that is worded, it almost sounds like there might be a glimmer of hope in that judgment.

Rosenritter said:

That's not a bad answer. By implication then, if we were to forgive others perfectly, we might be granted perfect indulgence from Christ and never step foot into Purgatory?

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:think: It's just a weird focus. "Forgive us our trespasses," which is asking for indulgences, remember; we're not asking for eternal forgiveness for our sins, that have already been forgiven, "As we forgive those who trespass against us." The focus is to grant indulgences to others, and we pray that Our Father Who art in heaven might lead others to forgive us our trespasses, where the temporal penalties we deserve can come from other people. :idunno:

Lazy afternoon said:

You are still on your journey.

LA

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You are a false prophet.

keypurr said:

You should face the truth as recorded in scripture.

You display your lack of theology when you do not give a scripture reason for your thoughts. In other words your a clanging symbol.


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shopkinslpskids has a spirit/spirits not unlike that of the Catholic "fathers" and the protestant "father" John Calvin. They like calling people heretics, and would maybe like to have us physically punished.

Nihilo said:

:think: It's just a weird focus. "Forgive us our trespasses," which is asking for indulgences, remember; we're not asking for eternal forgiveness for our sins, that have already been forgiven, "As we forgive those who trespass against us." The focus is to grant indulgences to others, and we pray that Our Father Who art in heaven might lead others to forgive us our trespasses, where the temporal penalties we deserve can come from other people. :idunno:

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When we pray "forgive us our tresspasses" we are speaking to God, correct? And thus the one we are asking for forgiveness is God, and the only way the sentence makes sense to me is if we are asking God to forgive trespasses against him.

That's the nature of sin and forgiveness. If I had offended popsthebuilder, I don't go to a different person and ask him to forgive me for wrongs I have done against him. And if I have sinned against God, I don't go to pops and ask him to forgive those sins against God. I need forgiveness from those that I have trespassed against. That's why Jesus can forgive sin, and why his sacrifice has any meaning.

You said that we are already forgiven of sins, but it seems to me that forgiveness is conditional upon us being willing to forgive others.

Mat 18:32-35
(32) Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
(33) Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
(34) And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
(35) So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

I don't believe in a purgatory, but I liked your answer because it focused on developing a forgiving heart towards others.

Isaiah: 65. 21. And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. 22. They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. 23. They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them. 24. And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear. 25. The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

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Rosenritter said:

When we pray "forgive us our tresspasses" we are speaking to God, correct? And thus the one we are asking for forgiveness is God, and the only way the sentence makes sense to me is if we are asking God to forgive trespasses against him.

That's the nature of sin and forgiveness. If I had offended popsthebuilder, I don't go to a different person and ask him to forgive me for wrongs I have done against him. And if I have sinned against God, I don't go to pops and ask him to forgive those sins against God. I need forgiveness from those that I have trespassed against. That's why Jesus can forgive sin, and why his sacrifice has any meaning.

You said that we are already forgiven of sins, but it seems to me that forgiveness is conditional upon us being willing to forgive others.

Mat 18:32-35
(32) Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
(33) Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
(34) And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
(35) So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

I don't believe in a purgatory, but I liked your answer because it focused on developing a forgiving heart towards others.

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My response comes from the Church's definition of what indulgences are; forgiveness of the temporal penalties due us for our sins/trespasses.

I'm not the One Who teaches us to petition Our Father Who art in heaven, "Forgive us our trespasses," that was the Lord. And eternal forgiveness is granted us when we believe in the Lord (Romans 10:9 KJV ; cf. Ro4:8KJV Co2:13KJV), which is when we accept and receive God's mercy.

Temporal penalties for our sins/trespasses remain even after faith, even for those sins/trespasses we committed before faith, and thereafter. A murderer who comes to believe that He is risen (the Gospel; Mt28:6KJV Mk16:6KJV Lk24:6KJV), is forgiven the eternal penalty due them for their murder, but not the temporal penalty; that's distinct.

"Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us," must regard temporal penalties. Otherwise, we cannot forgive those who trespass against us, because we don't have any power or authority or ability to forgive the eternal consequences of anybody's sins/trespasses. That's what the "as" means.

And asking Our Father Who art in heaven to forgive us our trespasses against others, is merely recognizing and acknowledging His sovereignty over His creation. It could be, for instance, that those against whom we've trespassed, will not forgive us, but instead that some third party intervenes and brings about the forgiveness that we request. He has the power to bring this about, and that's called indulgence.

popsthebuilder said:

Oh how I do love the truth of universal reconciliation. But I can't claim to know that universal reconciliation includes those set for destruction, those who knowingly blaspheme the Holy Spirit and turn others astray.

Do you think that all will repent, or that the mercy of GOD is without limit?



Please; I ask you to provide scripture showing that ALL will be reconsiled to GOD, by HIS Will.

thanks.

peace

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Hey, take a look at 1 Corinthians 15:22-26.

For as in Adam all die, even so, in Christ will all be made alive: but every man in his own order... For He must reign until he has put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death..

Now lets take a look at when death, the last enemy, is destroyed in Revelation 20:13-14.

And the sea gave up the dead that were in it; and death and the grave delivered up the dead that were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and the grave were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death: and whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Notice the order... the dead are delivered out of death, and then death is cast into the lake of fire and is destroyed. If death is the last enemy that is destroyed, anyone who is cast into the lake of fire is therefore not destroyed... Furthermore, after New Jerusalem is brought down to the new earth, we see in Revelation 21 and 22 that those who were not identified in Christ at the judgement do not have access to New Jerusalem. Even in the end of chapter 22 we find the following:

Blessed are those that do his commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city: for without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murders, and idolaters, and whosoever loved and made a lie.

If those who were thrown into the lake of fire after death are found outside of the city, how can they have been destroyed? We see that though they are justified unto life, they were not identified in Christ at the judgement, they were identified in their sin. Though they are reconciled and restored to life, since they are still identified in their sin, they may not enter into the city. ALL MEN are saved (delivered) from death, but only those who are identified in Christ and sealed with the Holy Spirit are saved (preserved) to enter into New Jerusalem where Christ resides.

For we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, wo is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. ~ 1 Timothy 4:10

popsthebuilder said:

Wow.

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Right back at you.

popsthebuilder said:

You might want to consider speaking in such a way about the origins of one's faith; that origin being GOD, since you are coming off as very ignorant indeed; I will mind my words. I've stated before that genuine ignorance is not nearly as bad as genuine attempted misdirection and deception.

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So, I believe God says He provides everything including giving each of us a measure of faith and you call me ignorant. Got it.

popsthebuilder said:

So Jesus is not only the cornerstone but too all that makes up the house or temple of GOD? I can agree with that. So you agree that a building is generally built on a foundation and the foundation and building materials are provided by Christ in regards to the house of GOD?

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God provides everything. (Matt. 22:1-14)

popsthebuilder said:

So are we to not do anything with the foundation and materials set out for us?

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Sure we are to do something with the foundation. We are to not take our eyes off the foundation --- Jesus Christ and His finished work on the Cross of Calvary. The Holy Spirit will then tell us to move to the right or to the left and walk in the way He wants us to walk in. (Isaiah 30:21),

God's Truth said:

I don't believe you.

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Fine with me. Don't bother me none.

Nihilo said:

There's only One Church. Getting out of purgatory isn't really the point of purgatory, it's just logical cause-and-effect. What goes around comes around, and physically dying doesn't stop that. We can and do grant temporal indulgences when we forgive those who trespass against us.
There's only One Church. We know we've been granted temporal indulgences when we don't have to pay for what we've stolen. We aren't thrown in prison for committing a felony. We somehow miss the ground even though we deliberately jumped off the roof. These are sins, trespasses, and their temporal penalties can be forgiven, and their forgiveness is called an indulgence.
When He taught us to pray the Our Father.
That all sounds OK.

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Oh, I get it, when you come to the presence of God you will offer your church as your savior.

Nihilo said:

My response comes from the Church's definition of what indulgences are; forgiveness of the temporal penalties due us for our sins/trespasses.

I'm not the One Who teaches us to petition Our Father Who art in heaven, "Forgive us our trespasses," that was the Lord. And eternal forgiveness is granted us when we believe in the Lord (Romans 10:9 KJV ; cf. Ro4:8KJV Co2:13KJV), which is when we accept and receive God's mercy.

Temporal penalties for our sins/trespasses remain even after faith, even for those sins/trespasses we committed before faith, and thereafter. A murderer who comes to believe that He is risen (the Gospel; Mt28:6KJV Mk16:6KJV Lk24:6KJV), is forgiven the eternal penalty due them for their murder, but not the temporal penalty; that's distinct.

"Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us," must regard temporal penalties. Otherwise, we cannot forgive those who trespass against us, because we don't have any power or authority or ability to forgive the eternal consequences of anybody's sins/trespasses. That's what the "as" means.

And asking Our Father Who art in heaven to forgive us our trespasses against others, is merely recognizing and acknowledging His sovereignty over His creation. It could be, for instance, that those against whom we've trespassed, will not forgive us, but instead that some third party intervenes and brings about the forgiveness that we request. He has the power to bring this about, and that's called indulgence.

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OK... let's say I am a rich and powerful person that doesn't care what others think. Like a medieval king, a drug lord, or Justin Beiber. If I am in a position that I cannot be harmed by the consequences of my actions, and I am already granted forgiveness for all things by God in heaven, is there any incentive for me to forgive others their trespasses against me? Why should I grant indulgences to anyone in such a case?

Veritas veritate said:

Notice the order... the dead are delivered out of death, and then death is cast into the lake of fire and is destroyed. If death is the last enemy that is destroyed, anyone who is cast into the lake of fire is therefore not destroyed... Furthermore, after New Jerusalem is brought down to the new earth, we see in Revelation 21 and 22 that those who were not identified in Christ at the judgement do not have access to New Jerusalem. Even in the end of chapter 22 we find the following:

Blessed are those that do his commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city: for without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murders, and idolaters, and whosoever loved and made a lie.

If those who were thrown into the lake of fire after death are found outside of the city, how can they have been destroyed?

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It would seem that they are found dead and destroyed outside the city. Does Revelation says they are found alive outside the city? My understanding is that their form has become ash, the smoky residue left over from that which is destroyed by fire.

Mal 4:1-3
(1) For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
(2) But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
(3) And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

If the last enemy destroyed is death, that means every other enemy destroyed before that time is still subject to that death. If death were the first enemy destroyed, then that might imply something different.

lifeisgood said:

Right back at you.



So, I believe God says He provides everything including giving each of us a measure of faith and you call me ignorant. Got it.



God provides everything. (Matt. 22:1-14)



Sure we are to do something with the foundation. We are to not take our eyes off the foundation --- Jesus Christ and His finished work on the Cross of Calvary. The Holy Spirit will then tell us to move to the right or to the left and walk in the way He wants us to walk in. (Isaiah 30:21),

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I called you ignorant for the assumptions you made about my faith in GOD.

I'm glad you have finally changed your tune and agreed that faith without works is dead, and that we must follow the direction and inclination of the Holy Spirit.

Progress

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Veritas veritate said:

Blessed are those that do his commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city: for without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murders, and idolaters, and whosoever loved and made a lie.

If those who were thrown into the lake of fire after death are found outside of the city, how can they have been destroyed? We see that though they are justified unto life, they were not identified in Christ at the judgement, they were identified in their sin. Though they are reconciled and restored to life, since they are still identified in their sin, they may not enter into the city. ALL MEN are saved (delivered) from death, but only those who are identified in Christ and sealed with the Holy Spirit are saved (preserved) to enter into New Jerusalem where Christ resides.

For we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, wo is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. ~ 1 Timothy 4:10

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What type of world would it be, that would be inhabited entirely by dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whomsoever loved and made a lie? A world where everything that was good and holy is forever removed, that will not look to Jesus as their savior for forgiveness of sins? That's a strange thing to count as Universal Salvation. Citizenship in a realm of distilled evil?

Rosenritter said:

It would seem that they are found dead and destroyed outside the city. Does Revelation says they are found alive outside the city? My understanding is that their form has become ash, the smoky residue left over from that which is destroyed by fire.

Mal 4:1-3
(1) For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
(2) But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
(3) And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

If the last enemy destroyed is death, that means every other enemy destroyed before that time is still subject to that death. If death were the first enemy destroyed, then that might imply something different.

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I already addressed this. Since death is the last enemy that will be destroyed, and those not found in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire after death, the last enemy, is destroyed: then those thrown into the lake of fire will not be destroyed. Also, there would be no need to specify who can enter into New Jerusalem if those who are outside were destroyed. Furthermore, there is no indication in any of the scriptures that talk about the lake of fire that those thrown within will be destroyed. That they are destroyed in the lake of fire is only personally inferred, and never stated outright.
Besides that, if you have enemies, and you reconciled them to yourself so that they are no longer enemies, have you not destroyed your enemies?


Is this not what God has done in Christ? Does the Blood of Christ not justify all men to life? There is not one person who is the enemy of God except through the alienation of one's mind. Jesus is the Savior of all men, not just some.

John Gill said Jesus is Michael the Archangel?

I've always thought of John Gill as being a fairly predictable commentator (not to say that I always agree with him) but I happened to notice this the other day:

Jude 1:9 KJV
(9) Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Jud 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel,.... By whom is meant, not a created angel, but an eternal one, the Lord Jesus Christ; as appears from his name Michael, ,which signifies, "who is as God": and who is as God, or like unto him, but the Son of God, who is equal with God? and from his character as the archangel, or Prince of angels, for Christ is the head of all principality and power; and from what is elsewhere said of Michael, as that he is the great Prince, and on the side of the people of God, and to have angels under him, and at his command, Dan_10:21. So Philo the Jew (o) calls the most ancient Word, firstborn of God, the archangel; ...

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He says something similar in his commentary of Daniel 10:21 and Daniel 12:1. equating Michael to Jesus Christ, saying that Jesus is the archangel, and again in 1 Thessalonians 4:16. In all of this he affirms that Jesus is none other than our God and creator, but still... my initial thought is that "Is John Gill is the source of the Jehovah Witness doctrine of Jesus being Michael the Archangel? John Gill, the Calvinist?"

Thoughts? Did John Gill lose his marbles? Two items of consideration:

In favor, he does point out that the reference to "the LORD rebuke thee" in Jude with its Old Testament reference, which does throw confusion into the terms "LORD" and "angel"... where it appears that the LORD himself is the "angel of the LORD" and himself as the LORD says "the LORD rebuke thee."

Zechariah 3:1-2 KJV
(1) And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
(2) And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?


Against, is that John Gill seems to have forgotten entirely about his claim that Jesus is the archangel (which he also acknowledges as an angel) when Hebrews tells us that Jesus was no angel.

Hebrews 1:4-8 KJV
(4) Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
(5) For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
(6) And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
(7) And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
(8) But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels,.... Christ is so much better than the angels, as the Creator, than the creature; as an independent being, than a dependent one; as he that blesses, than he that is blessed; as he that is worshipped, than he that worships:

Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time,.... That is, he never said to any of the angels what he has said to Christ; namely, what follows,


thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee for though angels are called the sons of God, Job_1:6 yet are never said to be begotten by him; or, with this clause annexed to it, "this day have I begotten thee"; nor are they ever so called in a proper sense, or in such sense as Christ is: this is said to Christ, and of him,

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... thoughts? You can get the John Gill commentary as one of the free E-sword downloads. Did Gill lose it, or does he have a valid point?

Rosenritter said:

What type of world would it be, that would be inhabited entirely by dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whomsoever loved and made a lie? A world where everything that was good and holy is forever removed, that will not look to Jesus as their savior for forgiveness of sins? That's a strange thing to count as Universal Salvation. Citizenship in a realm of distilled evil?

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You do not seem to grasp the whole picture. The lake of fire is a place of divine purification. Those on the outside of New Jerusalem are merely labeled as dogs, whoremongers, sorcerers, etc. because they had died without being preserved by the Holy Spirit; and thus, never obtained the inheritance that comes with being identified in Christ. In other words, the sin they were identified with when they had died becomes their nickname. like this:

Though Fred is justified to God and reconciled to life, because he did not acknowledge Jesus as his Lord and Savior, and he died practicing sorcery, he is known as Fred the sorcerer and cannot enter New Jerusalem because he has no inheritance therein. Remember, the good and bad are both judged by their works at the judgement.

Because Jane, Fred's friend, acknowledged Jesus as her Lord and Savior, and her life was filled with the fruit of the spirit to prove it, she obtained the inheritance of New Jerusalem and has a dwelling place therein. She can go out and visit Fred any time she wishes, but Fred is forever separated from the direct glory of the presence of God who resides within New Jerusalem.

lifeisgood said:

Oh, I get it, when you come to the presence of God you will offer your church as your savior.

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Yeah that's . . . not it at all. lain: