ECT Open Theism debate

@ Ask Mr. Religion;

I think you may have me on ignore which is fine. I do not want to debate but would like your opinion and will not refute it here or bring it back up elsewhere. Could you please answer the following at your convenience? peace

Can I ask;

Obviously Christ is GOD and Jesus was God manifest.

To you is there a difference in the eternal nature of the Son(Jesus the Christ specifically, as he was physically on the face of the Earth) and GOD almighty in that they are corternal and singular in Spirit, yet not retrospectively co-eternal in reference to the physical body or even the Word? What I am trying to ask is really two fold I guess.

Do you believe the Divine Spirit that filled the Holy Temple and vessel of GOD(the physical body of the Christ) to be wholly co-eternal with the Spirit of GOD in nature?

Do you make a division between the physical temporal vessel or Holy Temple/ body of Christ, and the substance there of(Christ/ Spirit of GOD)? That division being that one is wholly eternal and the other is wholly temporal.

Thank you for your time.

peace



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popsthebuilder said:

If one professes that all one must do is believe in the Christ of GOD, yet too profess that said belief isn't representative of life style then they are saying one can sin freely. In fact you pretty much say just that.

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I'm going to stop you there, because Paul gives us a litmus test to know if what we preach is true, because he was accused of the same thing, promoting sin:

But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unjust who inflicts wrath? (I speak as a man.)Certainly not! For then how will God judge the world?For if the truth of God has increased through my lie to His glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner?And why not say, “Let us do evil that good may come”?—as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just. - Romans 3:5-8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans3:5-8&version=NKJV

He also teaches against "sinning that grace might abound."

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.For he who has died has been freed from sin.Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him.For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. - Romans 6:1-14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans6:1-14&version=NKJV

So according to your misunderstanding of the writings ascribed to St. Paul; a devout pious believer in GOD who does what they believe the will of GOD to be in their life, yet doesn't understand the physical manifestation of GOD to be the literal eternal fullness of GOD almighty isn't safe, but a mass murderer or dictator or petaphyl can knowingly do all the evil they can muster or be as greedy as they want, or as wholly sick as they fancy, as long as they say with their lips that Jesus is GOD, they are good to go. That is making the Holy Spirit out to be evil.

If one professes that works are of no regard and should be given no effort then they are effectively saying that everyone's fate is sealed before conception and there is nothing any can do for their own sake or the sake of others and that it is wholly up to GOD to save us. That is saying that the masses are predisposed to destruction for the very nature GOD instilled them with by HIS will, which too is wholly evil and making the Spirit of GOD out to be evil.

What excuse will you use when brought to judgement?

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JudgeRightly said:

I'm going to stop you there, because Paul gives us a litmus test to know if what we preach is true, because he was accused of the same thing, promoting sin:

But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unjust who inflicts wrath? (I speak as a man.)Certainly not! For then how will God judge the world?For if the truth of God has increased through my lie to His glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner?And why not say, “Let us do evil that good may come”?—as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just. - Romans 3:5-8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans3:5-8&version=NKJV

He also teaches against "sinning that grace might abound."

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.For he who has died has been freed from sin.Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him.For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. - Romans 6:1-14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans6:1-14&version=NKJV

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You and I are in agreement it seems. Do you find that being made righteous is synonymous with staying the same? Surely not, according to the scripture you posted.



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marhig said:

Pops you are on Tapatalk like me, you can't remove thanks here as far as I can see, you have to go to the main site and do it.

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Just open the post in your phone's browser by selecting the post, tapping on the menu button, and then clicking "open in browser." Then once the page fully loads and it jumps to the post, click on "remove thanks".

popsthebuilder said:

You and I are I'm agreement it seems. Do you find that being made righteous is synonymous with staying the same? Surely not, according to the scripture you posted.



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Being made righteous means that we are no longer "sinners" by nature. It does not mean we no longer sin.

My point was that GD is not teaching that we should continue to sin, as you accused her of.

JudgeRightly said:

Being made righteous means that we are no longer "sinners" by nature. It does not mean we no longer sin.

My point was that GD is not teaching that we should continue to sin, as you accused her of.

Click to expand...

I did not accuse her of such.

If one believes all future knowing sin is forgiven beforehand then that is the same as saying all sin is excusable which is promoting all manner of sin. Doing so indeed does make GOD out to be evil as it is the decree of GOD according to the doctrine. Couple that with the whole no works doctrine and you have a view that rivals hypercalvinism in the level of which it attributes evil to the Spirit.

I commend you defending her, but I hope you can see what it is I am trying to say, and also, that you do not accuse me of things I am not doing nor have done.

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JudgeRightly said:

Being made righteous means that we are no longer "sinners" by nature. It does not mean we no longer sin.

My point was that GD is not teaching that we should continue to sin, as you accused her of.

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That is what she and some of her pals assert they are not teaching they do not hold to.

Their words and actions against anyone they conclude is not of their number, however, consistently proves otherwise.

The women is a hypocrite through and through and so are some of her pals.

It is as if they are forever stuck in the free gift of Romans 5 they are ever going on about, while just as endlessly forever spitting on the enablement Romans 6 both asserts the Believer now has and calls every Believer to walk in, in light of the reality of the free gift of Romans 5 that said free gift has both enabled and makes one accountable to walk in - thus, why Paul even wrote whole chapters like Romans 6 to begin with.

This is why no one respects her claims and that of some of various of her pals on here - they speak one thing but live out another on here - this pettiness and conflict they are ever all about.

As one who holds to Mid-Acts more or less, myself I know full well they are not only wrong to carry on that way, but that their hypocrisy would not be tolerated in any actually Grace Based Mid-Acts Assembly.

It is just as obvious in their much touted but clearly little walked in "Romans thru Philemon" that the Apostle they claim to "follow" did not tolerate their exact same kind of duplicity within those he wrote to about their same nonsense.

Add to this the fact that we have we each completely derailed Tam's thread.

Who was the first to continue her nonsense just after Tam reminded everyone of what this thread was about, none other than one of her pals in this exact nonsense - GD.

It's time this were taken to its own thread...

Or better yet, dropped.

For the Lord Himself found there is no reasoning with such.

Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Rom. 14:5; 5:6-8.

popsthebuilder said:

I did not accuse her of such.

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Except you did:

popsthebuilder said:

If one professes that all one must do is believe in the Christ of GOD, yet too profess that said belief isn't representative of life style then they are saying one can sin freely. In fact you pretty much say just that.

Click to expand...

Please be consistent.

If one believes all future knowing sin is forgiven beforehand then that is the same as saying all sin is excusable which is promoting all manner of sin.

Click to expand...

You are, again, accusing those who teach 'once saved always saved' and 'faith-alone' of promoting sin, EXACTLY LIKE PAUL WAS BEING ACCUSED.

We do not say, "since all sin is forgiven, that it's ok to sin." It's not. Sinning is still wrong.

And why not say, “Let us do evil that good may come”?—as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just. - Romans 3:8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans3:8&version=NKJV

Doing so indeed does make GOD out to be evil as it is the decree of GOD according to the doctrine.

Click to expand...

WE AGREE!

We agree, because we teach:

“But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! - Galatians 2:17 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians2:17&version=NKJV

Couple that with the whole no works doctrine and you have a view that rivals hypercalvinism in the level of which it attributes evil to the Spirit.

Click to expand...

Pops, one of the things you haven't seemed to grasp yet is that those who teach 'faith alone' are not saying that works, in and of themselves, are bad, same with obedience, but that we teach that works cannot save or keep you saved. They are only evidence of faith.

I commend you defending her, but I hope you can see what it is I am trying to say, and also, that you do not accuse me of things I am not doing nor have done.

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Click to expand...

----

Something I want to address from your other post real quick...

So according to your misunderstanding of the writings ascribed to St. Paul; a devout pious believer in GOD who does what they believe the will of GOD to be in their life, yet doesn't understand the physical manifestation of GOD to be the literal eternal fullness of GOD almighty isn't safe,

Click to expand...

If that person rejects what Jesus did for Him on the Cross, then yes.

but a mass murderer or dictator or petaphyl can knowingly do all the evil they can muster or be as greedy as they want, or as wholly sick as they fancy, as long as they say with their lips that Jesus is GOD, they are good to go. That is making the Holy Spirit out to be evil.

Click to expand...

Here's something else you can't seem to grasp:

If someone is saved, then they no longer want to do those things.

For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. - Romans 7:15-25 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans7:15-25&version=NKJV

If one professes that works are of no regard and should be given no effort

Click to expand...

Which is not what I, GD, BR, etc, teach...

then they are effectively saying that everyone's fate is sealed before conception and there is nothing any can do for their own sake or the sake of others and that it is wholly up to GOD to save us. That is saying that the masses are predisposed to destruction for the very nature GOD instilled them with by HIS will, which too is wholly evil and making the Spirit of GOD out to be evil.

Click to expand...

Again, not what we teach.

What excuse will you use when brought to judgement?

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Click to expand...

Danoh said:

That is what she and some of her pals assert they are not teaching they do not hold to.

Their words and actions against anyone they conclude is not of their number, however, consistently proves otherwise.

The women is a hypocrite through and through and so are some of her pals.

It is as if they are forever stuck in the free gift of Romans 5 they are ever going on about, while just as endlessly forever spitting on the enablement Romans 6 both asserts the Believer now has and calls every Believer to walk in, in light of the reality of the free gift of Romans 5 that said free gift has both enabled and makes one accountable to walk in - thus, why Paul even wrote whole chapters like Romans 6 to begin with.

This is why no one respects her claims and that of some of various of her pals on here - they speak one thing but live out another on here - this pettiness and conflict they are ever all about.

As one who holds to Mid-Acts more or less, myself I know full well they are not only wrong to carry on that way, but that their hypocrisy would not be tolerated in any actually Grace Based Mid-Acts Assembly.

It is just as obvious in their much touted but clearly little walked in "Romans thru Philemon" that the Apostle they claim to "follow" did not tolerate their exact same kind of duplicity within those he wrote to about their same nonsense.

Add to this the fact that we have we each completely derailed Tam's thread.

Who was the first to continue her nonsense just after Tam reminded everyone of what this thread was about, none other than one of her pals in this exact nonsense - GD.

It's time this were taken to its own thread...

Or better yet, dropped.

For the Lord Himself found there is no reasoning with such.

Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Rom. 14:5; 5:6-8.

Click to expand...

Who are you talking about? Who is "she"?

Danoh said:

That is what she and some of her pals assert they are not teaching they do not hold to.

Click to expand...

Again, your self-righteousness is showing.

No one is sinless; this says it all.

You don't know if you are judgeing rightly, and I know you say you are.

I say you are not, meaning hypocrite.

And I will not claim I am not hypocrite. May be Jesus' high standard says I am.

It is your word against mine.

Like I said over and over if our criticism is hypocritical, Jesus will not take it lightly. It is serious matter as His followers.

We all ought to watch out.

And Jesus is the Judge.

JudgeRightly said:

Who are you talking about? Who is "she"?

Click to expand...

It was clear I was referring to the actions of the very person you were defending - to GD.

And I have said what needed to be said - I am out of here.

This thread is about Open Theism.

You each ought to respect Tam's having pointed that out.

I'm memory of Rom. 5:6-8 - in each our stead.

JudgeRightly said:

Except you did:



Please be consistent.



You are, again, accusing those who teach 'once saved always saved' and 'faith-alone' of promoting sin, EXACTLY LIKE PAUL WAS BEING ACCUSED.

We do not say, "since all sin is forgiven, that it's ok to sin." It's not. Sinning is still wrong.

And why not say, “Let us do evil that good may come”?—as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just. - Romans 3:8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans3:8&version=NKJV



WE AGREE!

We agree, because we teach:

“But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! - Galatians 2:17 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians2:17&version=NKJV



Pops, one of the things you haven't seemed to grasp yet is that those who teach 'faith alone' are not saying that works, in and of themselves, are bad, same with obedience, but that we teach that works cannot save or keep you saved. They are only evidence of faith.



----

Something I want to address from your other post real quick...



If that person rejects what Jesus did for Him on the Cross, then yes.



Here's something else you can't seem to grasp:

If someone is saved, then they no longer want to do those things.

For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. - Romans 7:15-25 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans7:15-25&version=NKJV



Which is not what I, GD, BR, etc, teach...



Again, not what we teach.

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And to you, how does one reject what Jesus the Christ of GOD did for us? Would you liken it more to not following after heard or to spreading what was and is heard and to doing it as you have been shown and do believe?

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JudgeRightly said:

Just open the post in your phone's browser by selecting the post, tapping on the menu button, and then clicking "open in browser." Then once the page fully loads and it jumps to the post, click on "remove thanks".

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Thank you JR, that's a great help

popsthebuilder said:

We've been over this too.



How is it that so many conflate being conformed to His image and being MADE righteous and holy with staying the same yet worse; in knowing sin?

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I wouldn't know why you would do such a thing, but you do. :chew:

You're the one making the accusations about people being in "knowing sin". In fact, that is exactly what the enemy does....accuse people of sin. You should think about that.

Danoh said:

It was clear I was referring to the actions of the very person you were defending - to GD.

And I have said what needed to be said - I am out of here.

This thread is about Open Theism.

You each ought to respect Tam's having pointed that out.

I'm memory of Rom. 5:6-8 - in each our stead.

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Poor Danoh. Always saying what needs to be said, but never really saying anything.

It seems when people get their tender feelings hurt, they all react the same way.

Perhaps they should have been crucified with Christ, and that SELF PITY would not be such a problem. :think:

popsthebuilder said:

I did not accuse her of such.

If one believes all future knowing sin is forgiven beforehand then that is the same as saying all sin is excusable which is promoting all manner of sin. Doing so indeed does make GOD out to be evil as it is the decree of GOD according to the doctrine. Couple that with the whole no works doctrine and you have a view that rivals hypercalvinism in the level of which it attributes evil to the Spirit.

I commend you defending her, but I hope you can see what it is I am trying to say, and also, that you do not accuse me of things I am not doing nor have done.

Click to expand...

Which is exactly what the Jews accused Paul of doing. The reason they think that is because it's what they would do if they knew all their sins were forgiven. All natural men make that same assumption.

IF you were a new creation, you'd understand that all things are new. Those old assumptions made by the natural man, are understood to be foolishness. God doesn't just save us and leave us to fend for ourselves. He gives us the Holy Spirit to dwell in us, His love is shed abroad on our hearts, and our heart is purified by faith.

You complain because I talk "mean" to you. That's your problem...not mine. I simply say what needs to be said in the hopes you might examine yourself. If you do, you'd see you are still without the faith that saves....which is a complete trust in God and no trust in yourself.

glorydaz said:

I wouldn't know why you would do such a thing, but you do. :chew:

You're the one making the accusations about people being in "knowing sin". In fact, that is exactly what the enemy does....accuse people of sin. You should think about that.

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I've accused none.

I ha e only shown the potential of the doctrine you seem to preach.

I have accused you personally of no sin whatsoever but that the doctrine you seem to be preaching is very contrary to the actual gospel of salvation, and that it seems to also make the Spirit of GOD out to be evil.

I'm sorry you cannot see my point at there value. It was never and will never be my intent to condemn you or any other.

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JudgeRightly said:

Being made righteous means that we are no longer "sinners" by nature. It does not mean we no longer sin.

Click to expand...

You are completely wrong about that as most are.

It is still the nature of the saved man to sin.

It is all a matter of the will, as Paul taught and as jesus expressed in His temptation to avoid the cross.

Think about it and study Romans ch 7 and beginning of ch 8.

I know you and others will do so.

LA

glorydaz said:

Which is exactly what the Jews accused Paul of doing. The reason they think that is because it's what they would do if they knew all their sins were forgiven. All natural men make that same assumption.

IF you were a new creation, you'd understand that all things are new. Those old assumptions made by the natural man, are understood to be foolishness. God doesn't just save us and leave us to fend for ourselves. He gives us the Holy Spirit to dwell in us, His love is shed abroad on our hearts, and our heart is purified by faith.

You complain because I talk "mean" to you. That's your problem...not mine. I simply say what needs to be said in the hopes you might examine yourself. If you do, you'd see you are still without the faith that saves....which is a complete trust in God and no trust in yourself.

Click to expand...

If the Holy Spirit dwells in the saved then how would one not have faith in said Spirit that is within the believer?

How is being made new the same as knowing sin and still commiting it because you think you are safe regardless of what you do?

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popsthebuilder said:

You and I are in agreement it seems. Do you find that being made righteous is synonymous with staying the same? Surely not, according to the scripture you posted.

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Your assumption is either we knowingly sin or stay the same. :doh:

You simply don't trust God to do His work in us, do you?
That trust is what's missing from your "faith".