God's grace

Jacob

Jacob

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Shalom.

Do you understand God's grace in Yeshua Messiah? God's grace is for sin. You need to repent of your sin, all the sin that you have committed.

It is possible to point out something in regard to the Law of Moses that you could not be freed of, such as the death sentence for sin committed. When you are keeping the Law, but you have sinned, you know that by the Law you are basically condemned. There is nowhere to run, nowhere to turn to. You may just continue to observe God's Law and ignore that there is something that you should die for, if there is. If you have sinned, and you do not believe that it is a sin worthy of death, you have still sinned. You are still not right with God. You need to repent of your sin, confess your sin to God. If you have wronged anyone, you need to make it right with them. Do what the Law requires, and recognize what God's grace is for. It is not so that you would break the Law, sinning all the more. But grace is for sin. It makes sense to say so.

Shalom.

Jacob
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Jacob said:
Do what the Law requires, and recognize what God's grace is for.
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No, the righteousness which is of God and which believers receive has nothing to do with law keeping. Paul made that perfectly clear here:

"And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faithfulness of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith" (Phil.3:9).​
 
Jacob

Jacob

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Banned
Jerry Shugart said:
No, the righteousness which is of God and which believers receive has nothing to do with law keeping. Paul made that perfectly clear here:

"And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faithfulness of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith" (Phil.3:9).​
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Shalom.

I understand what I am talking about. We should continue to observe the Law. But grace is for sin, not observing the Law. You should observe God's commands in faith. Without faith it is impossible to please God. Should those who have faith observe God's commands? Do you believe that you should obey God? If so, how do you obey God? What commands of God do you obey?

If you believe that I may have been or could have been misinterpreted, thank you. Shalom.

Shalom.

Jacob
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Jacob said:
I understand what I am talking about.
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I'm sure that you think that you do.

Jacob said:
We should continue to observe the Law. But grace is for sin, not observing the Law.
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According to Paul "grace" is in regard to the the believer receiving a righteousness of God which is apart from law:

"But now apart from law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faithfulness of Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:21-24).​
 
Jacob

Jacob

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Jerry Shugart said:
I'm sure that you think that you do.



According to Paul "grace" is in regard to the the believer receiving a righteousness of God which is apart from law:

"But now apart from law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faithfulness of Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:21-24).​
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Shalom.

Yes. But this does not mean that the Law (or the Prophets) is(/are) abolished.

Shalom.

Jacob
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Jacob said:
Shalom.

Yes. But this does not mean that the Law (or the Prophets) is(/are) abolished.

Shalom.

Jacob
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Nobody I know denies that those who are already saved are to keep themselves holy (Ro.12:1). But law keeping has nothing to do with anyone being saved.
 
Jacob

Jacob

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Jerry Shugart said:
Nobody I know denies that those who are already saved are to keep themselves holy (Ro.12:1). But law keeping has nothing to do with anyone being saved.
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Shalom.

Well, I am already saved. I began observing Torah after I was born again, born from above, born by the Spirit of God. But do you believe that this is the only way a person can begin observing Torah, having been born again first that is? It is true, that I was born again first.

Shalom.

Jacob
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Jacob said:
Well, I am already saved. I began observing Torah after I was born again, born from above, born by the Spirit of God. But do you believe that this is the only way a person can begin observing Torah, having been born again first that is? It is true, that I was born again first.
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Gentiles are not under the Mosaic Covenant (Ro.2:14).
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Jacob said:
Shalom.

I am not a Gentile. I am a Jew.
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Are you in the Body of Christ? In the Body there is no distinction between the Jews and the Gentiles. And here is what Paul said about the law:

"But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster" (Gal.3:23-25).​
 
Jacob

Jacob

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Jerry Shugart said:
Are you in the Body of Christ? In the Body there is no distinction between the Jews and the Gentiles. And here is what Paul said about the law:

"But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster" (Gal.3:23-25).​
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Shalom.

Under the law can mean different things to different people. Jesus was born under the law and He was not under condemnation.

I am a Jew, of Israel. I read, study, and observe Torah. I observe and teach the Torah. I am also a part of the body of Christ, the body of Messiah. But I am not a Gentile. I am still a citizen of the United States of America. I live in Lakewood, Washington.

Shalom.

Jacob
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Jacob said:
Under the law can mean different things to different people.
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What does it mean to you?:

"But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster" (Gal.3:23-25).​
 
Jacob

Jacob

BANNED
Banned
Jerry Shugart said:
What does it mean to you?:

"But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster" (Gal.3:23-25).​
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Shalom.

It means that I am not under the law, not under the condemnation of the law, but that in whatever way I can be said to be under the Law I am not under condemnation. To obey or observe God's Law is good. To not obey and be counted as a transgressor is not good. There is condemnation there if you are a transgressor. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. And yet, we are not to continue in sin that sin would abound. And, sin is transgression of the law. So stop sinning, we are told by scripture. Best to obey the law, even saved by Christ, or what way are you thinking that you are not a sinner? There are those who say that they are sinners saved by grace. But if you are born again are you still a sinner? If you do not sin, is that because you keep the law of Moses, or do you have another way? See Jeremiah 31:31-34. What is God's law spoken of here? The new covenant is for the house of Israel and the house of Judah, and it came in Yeshua HaMashiach, Yeshua Messiah, Jesus the Christ. I observe the Torah, and as a Jew I accept the new covenant as for me.

Shalom.

Jacob
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Jacob said:
It means that I am not under the law, not under the condemnation of the law, but that in whatever way I can be said to be under the Law I am not under condemnation.
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If you sin against the law aren't you under the condemnation of the law? Here is what James said:

"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all" (Jas.2:19).​

Here is what Paul said about those who were trying to establish their own righteousness:

"For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth" (Ro.10:3-4).​
 
Jacob

Jacob

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Banned
Jerry Shugart said:
If you sin against the law aren't you under the condemnation of the law? Here is what James said:

"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all" (Jas.2:19).​

Here is what Paul said about those who were trying to establish their own righteousness:

"For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth" (Ro.10:3-4).​
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Shalom.

Yes. But the one who is born again (born of God, born from or of above) does not sin, and sin is transgression of the law.

Shalom.

Jacob
 
Jacob

Jacob

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Banned
Jerry Shugart said:
So you haven't sinned since you were born of God?
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Shalom.

This is something to consider. Why do you say this? If it is not true does that mean that I am not yet born of God? I believe that I have been born of God. I do not know if I sin.

Shalom.

Jacob
 
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