iouae
Well-known member
This is just idiom for lock, stock and two smoking barrels = one gun = completely.
Nothing immortal here.
And if I was Dcon, I would add...
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This is just idiom for lock, stock and two smoking barrels = one gun = completely.
Nothing immortal here.
And if I was Dcon, I would add...
iouae
Well-known member
Jsanford, look at the first times "soul"/nephesh/(H5315) is used in the Bible.
Does this indicate an immortal/spiritual component or a mortal one?
Gen 1:20
And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath H5315 life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
Here "moving creature having soul/nephesh life".
Nephesh is not translated as "life"
We are told aquatic creatures have "souls" in the very first place "nephesh" is used.
It should be case closed that "soul" refers to something immortal.
Gen 1:21
And God created great whales, and every living creature H5315 that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:24
And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature H5315 after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
Gen 1:30
And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, H5315 I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
Gen 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. H5315
Is not man's "soul" identical, and right there along with every other creature's "soul"?
Nephesh simply means "animation". But not spiritual animation. Earthly animation.
I oppose conspiracy theories, but I detect a conspiracy here. Notice how "soul" is mentioned first for man, but before and after, animals have "souls" but in their case it is not translated as "soul". This reflects the inherent bias KJV translators had that only man has an immortal soul.
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I mentioned the witch at Endor as another angle of attack...if people, as if Samuel was, are in heaven do witches have the power to draw them out?
Something happens when people consult with the dead but it’s not what they think it is...
“When they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? For the living to the dead? To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.Isaiah 8:19, 20"
Even though the apparition of Samuel was accurate...Saul recognized him...it told the truth Saul died the next day...let’s not forget there is great opposing power to the light of Truth...the dead are dead
Consult or believe otherwise and He will turn away from you...
“If a person turns to mediums and necromancers, whoring after them, I will set my face against that person and will cut him off from among his people. “ lev. 20:6
Interesting choice of words as I know many christians whoring themselves to the belief the dead can witness them from heaven...and pray to them...in hopes the saints advocate to Him...and that they answer prayers...
That is certainly not according to this Word...
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Lol, and now, because you neither understand nor believe the Testimony of the Messiah, you accuse him of conversing with the dead at the Transfiguration, (and it matters not whether you view the Transfiguration event as a vision or a literal event). You just keep getting closer and closer to blasphemy by way of your own ignorance: Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were not even dead when the Master expounded these things in his Testimony; for Elohim is not the Elohim of the dead, but the Elohim of the living. You therefore insinuate, in opposition to the Testimony of the Messiah, that Elohim is the Elohim of the dead. That may be true for yours but not mine: I can sit down in the kingdom of Elohim for the principal meal as we speak, and Moses and the Prophets can speak to me and teach me in the Word. :chuckle:
iouae
Well-known member
I agree with you completely Clefty.
This was a demon pretending to be Samuel.
In the story, Saul never gets to see the apparition. The medium describes the apparition, and Saul (falsely) assumes it is Samuel.
And demon spirits can lie, or take a message of truth from God to whoever.
Nothing from a medium can be assumed as true, or useful.
And this is definitely not proof of Samuel alive after death, but is the most common deception by spirits, which is to pretend to be a dead person, as in haunted houses.
More bloviating that is near unto blasphemy. Do you pay absolutely no mind to what is actually written in the scripture? Is your own private opinion the only thing that matters to you?
1 Samuel 29:11-19
11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spoke to Saul, saying, Why have you deceived me? for you are Saul!
13 And the king said to her, Be not afraid: but what did you see? And the woman said to Saul, I saw an Elohim ascending out of the earth.
14 And he said to her, Of what form is he? And she said, An certain upright one, ascending up: and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why have you disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed: for the Philistines make war against me, and Elohim is departed from me, and answers me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams, and therefore I have called upon you, that you might make known unto me what I shall do.
16 Then said Samuel, Why therefore do you ask of me, seeing that the LORD is departed from you and has become your enemy?
17 And the LORD has done to you just as He spoke by me: for the LORD has rent the kingdom out of your hand, and given it to your neighbor, even to David:
18 Because you obeyed not the voice of the LORD, nor executed His fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore has the LORD done this thing unto you this day.
19 Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons shall be with me: and the LORD shall also deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.
The statement, "therefore has the LORD done this thing unto you this day", not only speaks of the Philistines having gathered against Saul and Israel, but might also be understood to be speaking of perhaps the LORD permitting this to happen, that is to say, permitting Samuel to be summoned up by Saul, even though it was ultimately to the demise of Saul, (and thus the reasoning). Samuel therefore speaks even after the body had died: for he foretells the death of Saul and his sons, which would come to pass the next day, just as he said, (1Sam31:1-13).
iouae
Well-known member
I don't know how you believe one word of the medium. Do you believe the many mediums on TV today, who supposedly speak to the dead and bring messages back? If you do, then you are very vulnerable. And these mediums are good. They know just enough truth to deceive you.
The highlighted bit shows that Saul never saw Samuel, only the medium pretended to.
Verse 15 should read "15 And "Samuel" said to Saul".
As Clefty mentioned, no demonic medium is going to summon any dead or alive holy person.
Balaam was another medium or sorcerer. He also spoke some truth, but his overall message was terribly detrimental to all who listened, and he died miserably. You could see he was fighting God, an adversary of God.
Right Divider
Body part
Indeed, using the term "sleep" for "death" is called a EUPHEMISM. It is one of the many figures of speech that are used throughout the Bible and in everyday life.
You highlighted the incorrect portion to your supposed advantage:
The reason and way that Saul knew it was Samuel is because of this statement, "I saw an Elohim ascending out of the earth", for Saul understood, (at least better than you), that the Judges are called Elohim in the Torah:
Exodus 21:5-6
5 And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:
6 Then his master shall bring him unto the Elohim-Judges: he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post, and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl, and he shall serve him for ever.
Exodus 22:8-9
8 If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be brought unto the Elohim-Judges, to see whether he has put his hand to his neighbor's goods.
9 For all manner of trespass, whether it be for ox, for donkey, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, which another challenges to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the Elohim-Judges: and whom Elohim shall condemn, that one shall pay double unto his neighbor.
And in the same passage as the above we read:
Exodus 22:28
28 You shall not revile the Elohim-Judges, nor curse the Nasi-Prince of your people [the Kohen Gadol].
And yet here you are speaking of Samuel the Prophet, who is also an Elohim-Judge of Israel, and essentially calling him a demon. What now brown cow? One could only hope and pray that you say such things out of complete and utter ignorance: but even if so, you are yet like a fatted calf on your way to the slaughter, (go learn the parable, for there is truly more than one point, lol). :chuckle:
iouae
Well-known member
And who are you quoting as seeing this "elohim"? The medium.
Who cares what this demon-filled medium purported to say. The OT law put folks like her to death, which was what the demon-influenced hypocrite King Saul was doing, while at the same time breaking the law by seeing her.
I don't believe a word she says. Why? Because demons lie sometimes and sometimes they don't. And we humans are not smart enough to know when they are or are not lying. And this medium has had you buy her lie that she managed to raise a dead prophet.
Uh, sorry to burst your bubble but that is what the passage says; which you now appear to be saying is demonic. I "buy into" what the passage says because I believe what the scripture says. You do not, for apparently you imagine that your profane imagination is more profitable to you than the Word: so who exactly is "buying into" what? That was also somewhat kind of the point: try studying the scripture instead of glancing over it, (if even that), and spewing your opposition to what it says. It says, "SAMUEL SAID TO SAUL", not "the unclean demon pretending to be Samuel said to Saul". :duh:
Yah had refused to speak with Saul any longer hence his desperation...if samual was alive he would have known that and thus speaking to Saul would have been an act of rebellion in and of itself...
The irony that any one ascending from the below the earth would be bothered or disturbed rather than grateful for a minute’s respite from the fires of hell allegedly down there...LOL
Samual was faithful and would have been in heaven in this twisted teaching and thus would have been DEscending disturbed someone (wait wut he didn’t know?!! Lol) was bringing him down...
As written this demon was disturbed for being brought UP...
https://www.truthaboutdeath.com/q-and-a/id/1607/how-did-saul-speak-to-samuel-at-endor
It’s amazing so many Christians believe that people in hell can converse with those in heaven in the story of Abraham...and now here again we can have a witch call up anyone...
Just where are the gospels of Lazarus of his four days in the afterlife? Having been pulled back into this life or spared justifying punishment...
iouae
Well-known member
Thou shalt not surely die is also in the Bible. Do you believe that too?
Do you believe Samuel is alive in heaven, but gets summoned periodically by every Tom, Dick and John Edward to appear on earth at the whim of some sinner?
iouae
Well-known member
Good points.
Many cultures have the Day of the Dead, halloween, or believe in ancestral spirits. Haunted houses are believed to be where some person died and their restless spirit lingers in the house.
Then there are mediums like John Edwards pretending to contact the dead.
Demon spirits have observed how the dead once lived and are quite capable of impersonating the dead.
I have found it to be the most common demonic deception perpetrated on every single culture of humankind, that the dead are not really dead, which is a variation on"Thou shalt not surely die". Look at the Egyptian culture where the dead are able to be resurrected. Look at Greek and Roman mythology and the underworld where the dead are conscious.
It's demons lying - and this is their favourite lie, as shown by Satan saying "Thou shalt not surely die".
I bet Lucifer told that to the good angels when he was persuading them to rebel - that they would not surely die if they did sin. Thus maybe even the demons are wishfully thinking and believing their own lie, that they would not surely die.
I said no such thing, and besides, what the witch of Endor did is clearly forbidden in the scripture: but that does not mean it did not happen the way it is written. Moreover you apparently do not understand how things have changed since Matthew 27:51-53, (but that is neither my problem because no doubt you have had that discussion elsewhere with others and have made your own uninformed decisions concerning that also).
iouae
Well-known member
Daqq, just because we have a slight difference of opinion on this issue, does not stop us being friends otherwise. Doctrine is not worth getting hot and bothered about.
Then why are you getting so bent out of shape?
Is it because you cannot handle the scripture refuting your privately held dogma?
iouae
Well-known member
Act 2:34
For David is not ascended into the heavens:
Where do you say David is now, if David is not ascended into the heavens?
