glorydaz
Well-known member
Poor John the Baptist....lost all his dignity. :nono:
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
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Poor John the Baptist....lost all his dignity. :nono:
Lon
Well-known member
:nono: Please check your reading for comprehension. I said the places of the dead and living are fluid before and after the Lord Jesus Christ's work on the cross. Bible doctrines aren't fluid.
None say no awareness at all, just none of this physical life any more.
We both have spelled out our understandings of those scriptures, I believe sufficiently, that we understand the other's position.
The barn or the fox? Perhaps, at times, the Chronology isn't that important. I always tell new believers to read the NT about 7 times or more, before tackling the O.T.
We've been over them a couple of times.
It is in 'addition' to the fact that I think it biblical.
Yes, but it only seeks a 'way' to reconcile truths. I can't do theology this way, else I'm emoting my way through theology. I realize we have our emotions from God, but, to me, they are like the warning lights on a car. Sometimes they throw false-positives. My engine light comes on all the time now, because I have a pinhole leak in my exhaust. My car's 'emotions' are messing me up for when something actually goes amok.
It is better to think our way through scriptures first. I think emotions simply in our lives as indicators. It is good your values throw a warning light, but we don't live by them. In autos, we must take it to a mechanic, or read up on it ourselves. I believe the same here: ECT throws a trouble light of our emotions. Mine too. I think, because we both threw the same trouble-light, your concern is justified. We, however, must not just attend the light, but the cause of it. God isn't, by any necessity, evil if ECT exists. We get accused of it, but there is NO connection. Example: Do you know of a scripture that says God created Hades or the Lake of Fire? I don't. By comparison, God didn't create sin or the sin condition. All I know, on close inspection, is that people get there, and Hades, death, and Satan are reserved for the Lake of Fire.
Lon
Well-known member
"If" it offends :doh: Learn to actually read AND understand it before rejecting it is true to the letter? :think:
Lon
Well-known member
All of us? Just those who reject conscious torment? :think:
Zeke
Well-known member
True for the god of the carnal (Mt Sinai) mind which you have encountered and still enslaves you in carnal temporal bliss.
Lon
Well-known member
Yeah, those 'pesky FACTS' ones that would give you any inkling in the FIRST PLACE, are written down. Go figure. Did you realize even your rebuttals are written down?
Here is my thesis: At any point what you have written down that contradicts the scriptures, THOSE are the letters that kill. :think:
way 2 go
Well-known member
way 2 go
Well-known member
glorydaz
Well-known member
Yep, when we die physically, our soul and spirit live on....til the judgement.
What about those who have not been given life - the unbelievers? "There is no life in them" isn't just referring to the body.
The gift of God is eternal life. Do all receive that gift?
way 2 go
Well-known member
yes
if they don't have Jesus they don't have life , now or in the afterlife.
satan is a spirit and alive but does not have life same with unbelievers.
Rosenritter
New member
That's one opinion Way 2 Go.
But whomever wrote these had another opinion.
Psalms 37:20 KJV
(20) But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
2 Thessalonians 2:8 KJV
(8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
Matthew 3:12 KJV
(12) Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Do you have any idea how long chaff continues to exist before it is consumed, if you throw it into a fire and you don't quench that fire?
But whomever wrote these had another opinion.
Psalms 37:20 KJV
(20) But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
2 Thessalonians 2:8 KJV
(8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
Matthew 3:12 KJV
(12) Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Do you have any idea how long chaff continues to exist before it is consumed, if you throw it into a fire and you don't quench that fire?
Rosenritter
New member
Glorydaz, are you sure you want to be so assertive without listening to why these learned, intelligent, and respected men could say with confidence that this "spirit of Samuel" was a demonic apparition?
Proverbs 18:13 KJV
(13) He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.
Even if you were to argue and believe that it was really Samuel, you still don't have anything to show that Samuel was conscious from before he was summoned by the witch, nor that he was conscious afterwards. All you gain is a belief that those that commune with demons can summon the saints from rest.
Proverbs 18:13 KJV
(13) He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.
Even if you were to argue and believe that it was really Samuel, you still don't have anything to show that Samuel was conscious from before he was summoned by the witch, nor that he was conscious afterwards. All you gain is a belief that those that commune with demons can summon the saints from rest.
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Rosenritter
New member
Actually, what makes a punishment eternal or not is whether it will ever be undone. If you do something permanent that cannot or will not be undone, then it is eternal, and never changing, is it not?
Actually.... your translation reads differently than mine.
Revelation 20:10 KJV
(10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
I've looked at the specific source text before and there's no word for "they" in the text. No "and they shall be tormented" in the Greek. There's simply the identification of the fire as being the same one that the beast and false prophet were cast into a thousand years earlier.
And nothing to indicate that this beast and false prophet were fireproof or continued to exist.
Lon
Well-known member
Does physical fire actually make things non-existent? Or does it actually simply change the physical properties of said objects? :think:
What about a different kind of fire? :think:
glorydaz
Well-known member
No, and NO. Or YES, I am sure. I have considered what all kinds of learned men have had to say on just about every topic (including this one) over my forty plus years walking with the Lord. I also studied it for myself, and sought the Lord's enlightenment, as I always do as I read the word. Samuel was not summoned by the seer...she knew she was a fraud and unable to call up spirits. I'm surprised you don't. God, however can summon up whoever He desires for whatever purpose He desires and that is what you see here. God had told Saul, through Samuel when he was alive, that He would no longer listen to Saul. But, in His infinite mercy, He decided to send Samuel to tell Saul one more time....giving him a chance to call on God for mercy before his life ended. Many believe that Saul did call on God before the end....I don't know, and man can only speculate. Should I believe those speculations, too?
Rather, I see the Scripture says it's Samuel, and Samuel is speaking the same words he had spoken before. He gave Saul no false hope or information. If you want to allow your opinions to be formed by others....who have no better access to the scripture than we all do, that's your concern. Not mine.
I'm not out to "gain" anything. I have no dog in the fight...other than what I have found as truth from the word. I don't care what you or others think about it...one way or the other.
Have you found any other men of God responding to spiritualists after death being talked about in the Bible? If so, please share those.
Rosenritter
New member
I am left to think that either you don't have the courage to carry through on your beliefs, or you don't really love these babies that you could send on their way, or ... what I was suggesting earlier, that you might not really believe that in your heart of hearts.
Jesus does not say that babies or children go to heaven. What you said, no, I don't believe that. Here is what Jesus actually said:
Matthew 18:3-4 KJV
(3) And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
(4) Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
That's a type of metaphor, using the word "as" to emphasize the aspect of humility. Or at least an ideal by comparing it to the particular humble child (or children) Jesus was pointing to at that time.
Notice that Jesus does not even say that humility is the sole aspect of what determines who enters the kingdom of heaven.
So what I don't understand is why you are wishy-washy about this. How do you call it both good and evil in the same post? I will come right out and call it abominable child sacrifice that must surely please the spirits of Baal and Moloch. I know why I call it evil. But if you truly believed it would save a child from an eternity of torment, why do you call it evil?
By the way, you should know that we are already told that none of us are innocent of sin.
Romans 3:23 KJV
(23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Salvation isn't earned merely by the merit of not having done something really awful yet. The reason a baby hasn't done horrendous acts is because they don't have the power just yet. Give an infant ability and mental capacity and lo and behold, they are like us, as prone to sin as you or I. Salvation isn't earned, immortality is not a birthright. Salvation is offered through Christ, for those who will believe on him.
Now if one believes that all who die will see God, and be raised from the dead, and trusts that God knows what he is doing with this plan and judgment, and no need to worry. But if we are using the Bible for any guide, it doesn't tell us that babies that are killed go to heaven. It actually says they are dead, at rest, in silence, with everyone else who has ever died. No different from anyone else, they sleep until they are raised.
In fact, it says so here:
Jesus does not say that babies or children go to heaven. What you said, no, I don't believe that. Here is what Jesus actually said:
Matthew 18:3-4 KJV
(3) And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
(4) Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
That's a type of metaphor, using the word "as" to emphasize the aspect of humility. Or at least an ideal by comparing it to the particular humble child (or children) Jesus was pointing to at that time.
Notice that Jesus does not even say that humility is the sole aspect of what determines who enters the kingdom of heaven.
So what I don't understand is why you are wishy-washy about this. How do you call it both good and evil in the same post? I will come right out and call it abominable child sacrifice that must surely please the spirits of Baal and Moloch. I know why I call it evil. But if you truly believed it would save a child from an eternity of torment, why do you call it evil?
By the way, you should know that we are already told that none of us are innocent of sin.
Romans 3:23 KJV
(23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Salvation isn't earned merely by the merit of not having done something really awful yet. The reason a baby hasn't done horrendous acts is because they don't have the power just yet. Give an infant ability and mental capacity and lo and behold, they are like us, as prone to sin as you or I. Salvation isn't earned, immortality is not a birthright. Salvation is offered through Christ, for those who will believe on him.
Now if one believes that all who die will see God, and be raised from the dead, and trusts that God knows what he is doing with this plan and judgment, and no need to worry. But if we are using the Bible for any guide, it doesn't tell us that babies that are killed go to heaven. It actually says they are dead, at rest, in silence, with everyone else who has ever died. No different from anyone else, they sleep until they are raised.
In fact, it says so here:
Spoiler
glorydaz
Well-known member
Did I say something that made you think you needed to make that statement?
Am I supposed to dissect it and try to imagine some scenario that would contradict it?
SO? Does that mean your translation is better than mine?
Does it mean that because you find no indication of something it can't exist?
As far as being "fireproof", the burning bush did a pretty good job of being that.
Rosenritter
New member