ECT "Things that are different" included Gentiles

I

Interplanner

Well-known member
Right Divider said:
What is "the hope of Israel"? Note WHO the YOU in that verse refers TO.

Note Paul's mission per scripture:

Acts 9:15 (KJV)​
(9:15) But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:​

So even though Paul was the apostle of the gentiles that did not LIMIT his ministry to ONLY gentiles.

That's probably beyond your ability to comprehend.
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I've been saying that all along.
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
Interplanner said:
because it is one and the same. It would be two things if there was a kingdom for Israel. There is not--other than the one right now.
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It is actually the resurrection itself that is the hope of Israel (or anyone) because it is proof that Christ was sufficient as our sacrifice, and that he is enthroned. That's why Paul refers to the resurrection immediately after.
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
musterion said:
He's evil.

IP is simply stupid but Tet is, and always has been, deliberate in his perverseness. That makes him evil.
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Show us one thing that is "stupid" about the 10 propositions of NT eschatology. If I understand "stupid" correctly, it would not know what 10-12 letter words like that mean to start with. You can claim it is incorrect, but you lose credibility by your new label.
 
tetelestai

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Interplanner said:
It is actually the resurrection itself that is the hope of Israel (or anyone) because it is proof that Christ was sufficient as our sacrifice, and that he is enthroned. That's why Paul refers to the resurrection immediately after.
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Yep.

"If Christ did not fulfill, replace, or swallow up national Israel, then maybe he also didn't replace the temple in his body. Maybe circumcision of the heart didn't replace that of the flesh. Maybe the entire old covenant still abides. Indeed, maybe the "ministration of righteousness" hasn't set aside the "ministration of condemnation." Maybe we are under law and not under grace. Maybe we are yet in our sins. The consequences of such a proposition, as is evident, completely undermines the good news. Indeed, it attempts to erect anew the partition between Jew and Gentile. What a frightening thought it is!

Is it no wonder that the Dispensationalist system also looks for the erection of another temple made with hands and therewith the reinstitution of animal sacrifices."
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
tetelestai said:
Yep.

"If Christ did not fulfill, replace, or swallow up national Israel, then maybe he also didn't replace the temple in his body. Maybe circumcision of the heart didn't replace that of the flesh. Maybe the entire old covenant still abides. Indeed, maybe the "ministration of righteousness" hasn't set aside the "ministration of condemnation." Maybe we are under law and not under grace. Maybe we are yet in our sins. The consequences of such a proposition, as is evident, completely undermines the good news. Indeed, it attempts to erect anew the partition between Jew and Gentile. What a frightening thought it is!

Is it no wonder that the Dispensationalist system also looks for the erection of another temple made with hands and therewith the reinstitution of animal sacrifices."
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source that
 
D

Danoh

New member
tetelestai said:
Try again

Paul said he was in chains because of the hope of Israel.

Paul had only been preaching to Gentiles prior to Acts 28


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Actually, you are making the exact same mistake made by both the Acts 28ers and those on here who mix Acts 9 understandings with the Acts 28ers confusions.

The hope of Israel is The Resurrection that CHRIST's OWN Resurrection NOW made possible.

The hope of the Gentiles?

The Resurrection that CHRIST'S OWN Resurrection ALSO made possible.

The evidence?

See the following Spoiler:

Spoiler

Matthew 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Luke 14:14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Acts 1:22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Acts 4:2 Being grieved that they taught the people, and preached through Jesus the resurrection from the dead.

Acts 4:33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.

Acts 23:6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question. 23:7 And when he had so said, there arose a dissension between the Pharisees and the Sadducees: and the multitude was divided. 23:8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.

Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. 24:16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offence toward God, and toward men.

Acts 26:6 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God unto our fathers: 26:7 Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews. 26:8 Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead? 26:9 I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth. 26:10 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them. 26:11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities. 26:12 Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests, 26:13 At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me. 26:14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 26:15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.

Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 1:2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

2 Timothy 2:7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things. 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel: 2:9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound. 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

Duh-uh :chuckle:
 
tetelestai

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Danoh said:
The hope of Israel is The Resurrection that CHRIST's OWN Resurrection NOW made possible.

The hope of the Gentiles?

The Resurrection that CHRIST'S OWN Resurrection ALSO made possible.
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Now you're cooking with gas!

That's my point.

Paul preached to the Jew first, then the Gentiles that "The Resurrection that CHRIST's OWN Resurrection NOW made possible"

Paul described his preaching as "the hope of Israel".

IOW, Paul knew that preaching to the Jews and the Gentiles (10 tribes from House of Israel) was "the hope of Israel".

That's also why Paul said "and in this way all Israel will be saved" in Rom 11.
 
D

Danoh

New member
tetelestai said:
There's a reason.

HINT:

(Dan 9:7) O Lord, righteousness belongeth unto thee, but unto us confusion of faces, as at this day; to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and unto all Israel, that are near, and that are far off, through all the countries whither thou hast driven them, because of their trespass that they have trespassed against thee.
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You're wrong again!

What're you; going for some sort of World Record?

Good luck on that, as you have some rather stiff competition on here; in dodge, IP; GT, ad infinitum :chuckle:

That in Daniel 9:7's "near, and that are far off" is this in...

Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

2:9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 2:10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 2:11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

2:12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?

2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

:chuckle: Here, bro, have a free :doh:
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
tetelestai said:
Now you're cooking with gas!

That's my point.

Paul preached to the Jew first, then the Gentiles that "The Resurrection that CHRIST's OWN Resurrection NOW made possible"

Paul described his preaching as "the hope of Israel".

IOW, Paul knew that preaching to the Jews and the Gentiles (10 tribes from House of Israel) was "the hope of Israel".

That's also why Paul said "and in this way all Israel will be saved" in Rom 11.
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PREACHING to them was the hope?

And, you must mean that the 10 tribes is figurative since you call them the Gentiles. Ordinary sense where possible, please.

And, "in this way" in Rom 11, is the partial hardened way. There are not many choices for the antecedent. And he means the ethne is partially hard but another Israel will be justified from their sins.
 
tetelestai

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Let's go back to the sheep discussion.

(John 10:16) I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

As we see above, Jesus made it clear that the sheep from the other pen (House of Israel) would hear His voice.

This happened after the cross when Paul preached to the Gentiles (10 tribes from House of Israel). These Gentiles (who were descendants of the 10 tribes) heard the voice of Jesus when Paul preached the gospel.

Both sheep pens (House of Judah & House of Israel) are now one flock with one shepherd.

This didn't happen till after the cross. Which is why Jesus said "shall be".
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
tetelestai said:
Let's go back to the sheep discussion.

(John 10:16) I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

As we see above, Jesus made it clear that the sheep from the other pen (House of Israel) would hear His voice.

This happened after the cross when Paul preached to the Gentiles (10 tribes from House of Israel).

Both sheep pens (House of Judah & House of Israel) are now one flock with one shepherd.

This didn't happen till after the cross. Which is why Jesus said "shall be".
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Why bother with a figurative sense?
 
tetelestai

tetelestai

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LIFETIME MEMBER
Danoh said:
2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
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Those were Jews.

The Israelites from the 10 tribes who were scattered amongst the nations were not Jews, they didn't keep the law and make pilgrimages to Jerusalem for Pentecost.

They lived amongst the Gentiles as Gentiles.

Even the Jews acknowledged that these Israelites were Gentiles:

(John 7:35) Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?
 
D

Danoh

New member
tetelestai said:
Now you're cooking with gas!

That's my point.

Paul preached to the Jew first, then the Gentiles that "The Resurrection that CHRIST's OWN Resurrection NOW made possible"

Paul described his preaching as "the hope of Israel".

IOW, Paul knew that preaching to the Jews and the Gentiles (10 tribes from House of Israel) was "the hope of Israel".

That's also why Paul said "and in this way all Israel will be saved" in Rom 11.
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No, nope, and nah...and then some :chuckle:

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

And...

John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

And...

Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

And...

John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

Jews and Israelites are one and the same people.

The temporary dividing of their kingdom did not change the fact that they are all.

Sons of Jacob: Israel.

Romans 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

Romans 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, 9:2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Duh-uh
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
tetelestai said:
Those were Jews.

The Israelites from the 10 tribes who were scattered amongst the nations were not Jews, they didn't keep the law and make pilgrimages to Jerusalem for Pentecost.

They lived amongst the Gentiles as Gentiles.

Even the Jews acknowledged that these Israelites were Gentiles:

(John 7:35) Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?
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Tet!
It's not 'ethne' in Jn 7, it's ''Ellanas'. Leave the text alone. You have to stay with the ordinary meaning. There is no other place where ''Ellanas' is "Gentiles."
 
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