Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

Lon · May 22, 2017

Ephesians 5:11

Ephesians 5:11

KingdomRose said:
Reply to post #6498: Amen, amen, amen! A glint of sanity today, amidst frustratingly absurd premises!!

:doh: He rejects your beliefs too. He does not believe the Bible. It isn't inspired and is full of errors to him. I wish discernment was on your list, but what can I expect from JW's

lain:

Join any crowd as long as they are against the rest of the church, much? :dizzy:

You go right ahead. Be my guest. You make your own unequally yoked beds to your heart's content. As for me and my house....

Rosenritter · May 22, 2017

You are asking if Jesus would use fictional elements within a parable? Considering that his audience would be familiar with the Greek Hades and would by no means be confused (as you have been), then yes.

What of Moses and Elijah on the Mount? Was that an illusion? I think the word that Jesus used was "VISION."

Matthew 17:8-9 KJV
(8) And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.
(9) And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

So unless you want to argue with Jesus or the authenticity of that gospel, we are talking about a vision, something seen without substance. The book of Revelation is given as the contents of a vision as well. As for whether the vision was accomplished by means of illusion or actors (such as angels) this is not something we are told. But we do have:

a) Jesus plainly tells us that no man has ascended to heaven (John 3:13, hardly an obscure passage)
b) Peter plainly says that David has not ascended to heaven (Acts 2:29-34)
c) Paul plainly tells us that the saints of old died in faith, not yet having received the promises Hebrews 11:13, 39

So rather than choosing to run with wild imagination that Moses and Elijah and Abraham are alive floating in heaven somewhere, something which the Bible never tells us, and ignoring plain statements from the prophets, apostles, and Jesus himself, I'm going to go with the decidedly Biblical path that tells us the dead are dead, and that without the resurrection we would be without hope, that our eternal life is in Jesus Christ and the resurrection alone.

glorydaz said:
Oh dear. You honestly think our Lord Jesus Christ would repeat a story akin to Santa?

No, He specifically was revealing a great and wonderful truth...one that had been under a cloud for thousands of years. He was clarifying the fact that Abraham was not gone...just waiting until he would join our Lord in His kingdom. What a shame you don't see that. Soul sleep is one all cults insist on....because they refuse to accept the great hope of eternal life. :sigh:

What about Moses and Elijah appearing on the Mount of Transfiguration? Was that just an illusion?

Rosenritter · May 22, 2017

Yes, I did indeed say that. Are you suggesting that an eternity of torture would not serve any practical purpose to win the heart of the unbelieving to repentance and obedience?

Well, perhaps it might not. But it must have some useful purpose. Maybe it would be for the entertainment of the saints? I think Tertullian said that he would dance with glee to see others tortured in such a fashion.

Tertullian

“At that greatest of all spectacles, that last and eternal judgment how shall I admire, how laugh, how rejoice, how exult, when I behold so many proud monarchs groaning in the lowest abyss of darkness; so many magistrates liquefying in fiercer flames than they ever kindled against the Christians; so many sages philosophers blushing in red-hot fires with their deluded pupils; so many tragedians more tuneful in the expression of their own sufferings; so many dancers tripping more nimbly from anguish then ever before from applause."

“What a spectacle. . .when the world. . .and its many products, shall be consumed in one great flame! How vast a spectacle then bursts upon the eye! What there excites my admiration? What my derision? Which sight gives me joy? As I see. . .illustrious monarchs. . . groaning in the lowest darkness, Philosophers. . .as fire consumes them! Poets trembling before the judgment-seat of. . .Christ! I shall hear the tragedians, louder-voiced in their own calamity; view play-actors. . .in the dissolving flame; behold wrestlers, not in their gymnasia, but tossing in the fiery billows. . .What inquisitor or priest in his munificence will bestow on you the favor of seeing and exulting in such things as these? Yet even now we in a measure have them by faith in the picturings of imagination.” [De Spectaculis, Chapter XXX]

Surely that would be a useful reason to justify such a plan? If it makes Tertullian happy, surely God would be willing to torture a few extra thousand just for the pleasure of his special saint, would not? Wait... surely you are not going to suggest that a true saint of a God of Love wouldn't want any part of such a maliciously cruel scheme?

Caino said:
Did you just say "perhaps with enough time he would prove his goodness through that torment, confess their sins"????

Sin is to choose mans way over Gods. Torture, burning is cruel, it is mans way not Gods.

Prove goodness through torture???? :jawdrop::doh:

God proves his goodness by exhausting every avenue of mercy and forgiveness. There was even a time delay in offering redemption to Lucifer and those who followed him. Evil only exists as it is the shadow of Gods goodness.

Rosenritter · May 22, 2017

Caino, what latter scribes? Where do you think see "never ending torture" in any of these passages?

Caino said:
I don't think Jesus was always remembered word for word perfectly which is understandable. Perhaps latter scribes who believed in Hell fire and torture thought they would fix it????

This is how I believe that conversation went:

"In the great day of the kingdom judgment, many will say to me, `Did we not prophesy in your name and by your name do many wonderful works?' But I will be compelled to say to them, `I never knew you; depart from me you who are false teachers.' But every one who hears this charge and sincerely executes his commission to represent me before men even as I have represented my Father to you, shall find an abundant entrance into my service and into the kingdom of the heavenly Father." UB 1955

Rosenritter · May 22, 2017

Lon, your answer is confusing in a few aspects:

1) How are "Jewish sinners" any different in the eyes of God or their need for preaching than any other type of sinner? I thought that Peter and Paul ironed this out back in the book of Acts.

2) Death is the cessation of life. That is its most fundamental definition. If you wish to defy this definition, show where the Bible defines it differently. Arbitrarily changing the meaning of words inside out and upside down at your whim is indeed the method of cults, not sound scriptural interpretation.

3) Are you not aware that we know exactly when Adam died? Nine hundred and thirty years later, IF you believe the scripture instead of making up nonsense like "He died spiritually that day."

Genesis 5:5 KJV
(5) And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

I don't think you have a single scripture that tells us that Adam "died spiritually" or died twice. In fact, Paul tells us quite the opposite. Maybe you should teach Paul? Paul says that "It is appointed unto men once to die, and then the judgment" ... nothing about dying TWICE before the judgment.

Hebrews 9:27 KJV
(27) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Now there is a second death, but it is completely different than what you just said. The first death is what brings us to our grave, the second death follows the judgment and involves being cast into a consuming fire.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Whatever it was that you just repeated was a doctrine and/or philosophy which is not from the Bible. From the first death we are buried and rise again. From the second death one is burnt by fire and becomes ash beneath the feet of the righteous. That's biblical. Not your story. Stop making stuff up and pretending it's scripture!

Malachi 4:1-3 KJV
(1) For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
(2) But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
(3) And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Lon said:
"Jewish" sinners. Caino is NOT using scriptures. You go ahead and learn the hard way. I'm done with this part of the conversation. He just said to me above that he hates the men that wrote the Bible because they were liars :doh:

Sorry, this paragraph is nonsense. There is no contradiction. None.

Adam and Eve died the day they ate the fruit. Death is not cessation. You have a tent that lives biologically, and a spirit that "lives" only if you are in Christ. Therefore, life and death are words that stand for more than one concept, both. Learn them.

Do you have a concordance? Get one and look up what words are translated from either Hebrew or Greek.

A soul experiences the death of its body/tent. You do not 'cease to exist' when you die. You should entertain the idea that spiritual death is separation from God. Some people believe we were created self-willed. As such, it points toward a being that doesn't cease. If so, men who reject God will 'live' that way without Him, by their own choice. Stop trying to blame God for wicked man's choices. You are a bleeding liberal at that point, trying to save the wicked when they, themselves, are past the point of no return. By this, I do not mean give up, but I mean don't make excuses for them, or wind up on the wrong side, hating God by your deference to those wicked. God loves them. You are supposed to as well but NOT if you neglect the first command, in order to do it. I don't know if I can get you to understand this point. "The second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself."

Caino · May 22, 2017

Rosenritter said:
Yes, I did indeed say that. Are you suggesting that an eternity of torture would not serve any practical purpose to win the heart of the unbelieving to repentance and obedience?

Well, perhaps it might not. But it must have some useful purpose. Maybe it would be for the entertainment of the saints? I think Tertullian said that he would dance with glee to see others tortured in such a fashion.

Tertullian

“At that greatest of all spectacles, that last and eternal judgment how shall I admire, how laugh, how rejoice, how exult, when I behold so many proud monarchs groaning in the lowest abyss of darkness; so many magistrates liquefying in fiercer flames than they ever kindled against the Christians; so many sages philosophers blushing in red-hot fires with their deluded pupils; so many tragedians more tuneful in the expression of their own sufferings; so many dancers tripping more nimbly from anguish then ever before from applause."

“What a spectacle. . .when the world. . .and its many products, shall be consumed in one great flame! How vast a spectacle then bursts upon the eye! What there excites my admiration? What my derision? Which sight gives me joy? As I see. . .illustrious monarchs. . . groaning in the lowest darkness, Philosophers. . .as fire consumes them! Poets trembling before the judgment-seat of. . .Christ! I shall hear the tragedians, louder-voiced in their own calamity; view play-actors. . .in the dissolving flame; behold wrestlers, not in their gymnasia, but tossing in the fiery billows. . .What inquisitor or priest in his munificence will bestow on you the favor of seeing and exulting in such things as these? Yet even now we in a measure have them by faith in the picturings of imagination.” [De Spectaculis, Chapter XXX]

Surely that would be a useful reason to justify such a plan? If it makes Tertullian happy, surely God would be willing to torture a few extra thousand just for the pleasure of his special saint, would not? Wait... surely you are not going to suggest that a true saint of a God of Love wouldn't want any part of such a maliciously cruel scheme?

I cant tell if you are joking or not? Fear is the beginning of wisdom of the Lord, not threats of an ISIS like God.

But I have wondered if perhaps people who are mentally degenerate enough to believe in such a sadistic monster may in some way be protected by entertaining such an idea? In other words, if they realized how nice God was they might take him for granted and hurt themselves?

Lon · May 22, 2017

Rosenritter said:
You are asking if Jesus would use fictional elements within a parable? Considering that his audience would be familiar with the Greek Hades and would by no means be confused (as you have been), then yes.

Just a note: You didn't change gears. It means snarky, arrogant, and unlearned are your character traits. You showed this to me, unedited and switching no gears. You have problems and are in need of an education. YOU are the one that is wrong. Sorry young pup. Fact.

Rosenritter said:
What of Moses and Elijah on the Mount? Was that an illusion? I think the word that Jesus used was "VISION."

#1) You are a Sadducee. The Lord Jesus Christ corrected them. They were wrong. You are wrong. /of that story. You are a young pup full of yourself and it is frankly, pathetic and sad. You should be learning, not posturing. Why are you posturing? Easy: Emotions you cannot control and to the point of rejection of God, no matter who He is. Job wasn't kidding! "Though He slay me, yet I will praise Him!" You are nowhere near there. Until then, you cannot be His disciple. You will be the slave of and for the world and what 'they' believe is right.

Rosenritter said:
Matthew 17:8-9 KJV
(8) And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.
(9) And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

Young pup: ὅραμα "What you have seen"
You are the one making things up to fit your theology. Plain and simply, I want what God says. Nothing more. Nothing less. I will NOT make excuses for God. Whoever He is, however He is, that is my God. I will NOT attempt to conform Him to my image. I'm Unholy. "I" need to be conformed to His image. Not so these others in thread. You are making a bed being unequally yoked. Choose God, not anti-Christians (and that is no slam, they have said they are against the Bible and Jesus' work on the Cross, from their own mouths. They will never deny it. It is true).

Rosenritter said:
So unless you want to argue with Jesus or the authenticity of that gospel, we are talking about a vision, something seen without substance. The book of Revelation is given as the contents of a vision as well. As for whether the vision was accomplished by means of illusion or actors (such as angels) this is not something we are told. But we do have:

:nono: Your way or the highway doesn't work, simpy because you are not, in point of fact, this smart. You are a young pup that needs to take lessons from godly men and women. Not pagans.

a) Jesus plainly tells us that no man has ascended to heaven (John 3:13, hardly an obscure passage)

:doh: LEARN goofy! This was prior to His resurrection. All of these were in Paradise at this time!

b) Peter plainly says that David has not ascended to heaven (Acts 2:29-34)

Hello!? McFly?!! Prior to Jesus' Resurrection. Anybody home?

c) Paul plainly tells us that the saints of old died in faith, not yet having received the promises Hebrews 11:13, 39

Yes. Learn ANYTHING yet???

Rosenritter said:
So rather than choosing to run with wild imagination that Moses and Elijah and Abraham are alive floating in heaven somewhere, something which the Bible never tells us, and ignoring plain statements from the prophets, apostles, and Jesus himself, I'm going to go with the decidedly Biblical path that tells us the dead are dead, and that without the resurrection we would be without hope, that our eternal life is in Jesus Christ and the resurrection alone.

No! Ignoring your ignorant putting together of events and happenings. You are the one that is wrong. Can a young arrogant know-it-all pup be taught? If not, you can just go the route of the rest of the cults and have the praises of men. Me? Nobody adoring me in thread, yet I'm telling them the truth. I'm looking for a different reward. I don't care about anything, nothing, but being Biblical. Not the case with two in this thread, and I'm not exaggerating. They both will tell you if you ask them. If not, I can grab the quotes for you fairly quickly. The other? A JW throwing in with the two that blatantly reject anything in the Bible that isn't what their rant book says.
This is your sign. As for me and my house, we WILL serve the Lord Job 13:15

Rosenritter · May 22, 2017

You you spent that much effort creating trash talk Lon? One would think it would be less troublesome to actually answer and address the questions. The "Run away while declaring victory" tack is nothing new. It's the standard defense of those that prefer the approval of their peers rather than limiting oneself to "Only what the scripture says."

Lon said:
No.
Anglican. NOT a Conservative Fundamental Evangelical.
Quit trying to one-up me. This posturing will have me leaving you to your ignorant arrogance if you continue. I have little patience for those who aren't here to learn. You don't have to be on TOL 'to learn' but it kind of becomes posturizing. I have the where-with-all and credentials. You can pursue them or ignore them yourself, if you like. "misquote" and 'fair amount' (no there are not), are just posturing words of feigned superiority and assertion. I'm not interested.

Nope. My patience with you is wearing thin. It means I'm done. Believe as you like, Rosenritter. I will believe as God has called me to believe and understand His word. There is no point in continuing. There are hundreds of pages now that cover this material sufficiently. Don't listen to your own demise. I've already said I'd be an annihilationist if I could. My own studies of those scriptures show annihilation as thin. Not well represented at all. I would be one if I believed scripture would allow it. I genuinely, scripturally, believe I cannot. Your understanding of my theology, let alone anyone else's is not understood by you either. You need to study a lot more, talk a lot less.
Go read again, young pup. Learn to speak to your elders and betters with more deference and esteem while you are at it. There is no respect here on your part. Do you realize you've become snarky since being here on TOL?

You are inept. Read it all. Again. You are clearly wrong. That change-up was made well before Luke 16:19 and you are remiss in noting it. Stop being a student who 'asserts.' It is pathetic and ridiculous. You are not my peer. I've been at this a lot longer than you and with the appropriate education behind it.

Nope, just you and unbelievers.

I don't care what you believe. You are rewriting God. You are angry with God, if He isn't exactly like you expect. Guess what? You are not that awesome. You don't get to redefine God. Caino does. He hates the Bible. If you hate it too, you can move on to something ridiculous. As for me and my house....
And yeah, I'm looking for that integrity. If it doesn't exist (and you are quickly dropping the ball on that expectation), then you can go your own way. I'm giving you the majority of the Protestant view and bringing that wealth to bear and you are thinking it is just you and me. :nono: You are against all of 'us' and being snarky and arrogant about it.

Not important at the moment. I'm about to let you go because of this post and the one prior. Not my cup of tea. I'm not interested when the things of God become fodder for banter and bad behavior. I will not discuss God on such a field of dishonor.

I'd answer, but you aren't interested, just incredulous. None of this is a 'real' inquiry lain:

Nope, just yours lain:

Nope. Yours is the private interpretation. You could have asked. This too is not a question, nor even an honest assessment. It is an accusation REGARDLESS of counterfactuals.

Nope. A professor, much more adept than you (or me) walked me through this. You've got nothing left but snarky and are playing the part of ignorance and foolery.
Good on you for doing theology this way. It suddenly became 'you and me' instead of a desire to praise and worship the God of the universe. Nice going :up:

No, but The Lord Jesus Christ can certainly make a fool of your understanding. Instead of entertaining that uncomfortable thought, you went to the absurd. :applaud:

Just more thoughtless posting and 'fake' assessment that you don't actually believe. I've shown you, you are the one that is lazy in replies, do not line item your response, nor apply yourself past your own posturing. There is NO teaching stubborn or fool. It cannot be done until pigheaded stops being an arrogant know-it-all who doesn't really know anything but his own shallow dredges.

▲Arrogant trash talk▲ NONE of it from God. :nono:
None of it. Get over yourself.

Trash talk. I certainly do.

The MAJORITY of us don't believe you. Has nothing to do with your snarky 'you don't believe' trash talk. All of us disagree with you. How arrogant can you get? Dare I get there with you? :nono: I'll bow out and just 'think' I'm
incredibly smarter and wiser than you for not stooping to this trash talk inanity.

Actually, I believe that man is you. You'd rather bow to the lost, than God and would rather have their approval, as evidenced in this thread, than be a workman approved by God, or one who understand his own limited place against the greater church around him. NONE of this is a gauntlet at my feet, but the church at large. That's why I'm both smarter and wiser, "me" is "Us." You just aren't THAT smart. Sorry. You shouldn't be this stupidly arrogant. You aren't old enough for another.

:doh: I'm not going to tell you what I think of you here..... THINK! What would I actually tell you? What would you tell yourself!?

Here's another real-brainer of a question :doh: Of COURSE there are real elements! :doh:
:nono: I've no idea what to do with a kid like you. The skull is too thick. The arrogance too high and above.

:sigh: So arrogant So much to teach you and you will not The plants that speak aren't actually 'plants.'

Caino · May 22, 2017

Lon said:
Sorry. I really do, think it is the most brain-dead rubbish I've ever read.

:dizzy: :spam::hammer::dunce::dead::bang::kookoo::dizzy::flamer::vomit::baby::loser::maxi::troll::vomit::down:

Thanks for sharing that quote from the UB, that's why I like the latest revelation of truth better.

Caino · May 22, 2017

Rosenritter said:
You you spent that much effort creating trash talk Lon? One would think it would be less troublesome to actually answer and address the questions. The "Run away while declaring victory" tack is nothing new. It's the standard defense of those that prefer the approval of their peers rather than limiting oneself to "Only what the scripture says."

That's what a theology degree will get-cha.

Rosenritter · May 22, 2017

You can't tell if I am serious or not? Was Elijah serious when he encouraged the prophets of the groves to appeal louder to Baal?

1 Kings 18:26-27 KJV
(26) And they took the bullock which was given them, and they dressed it, and called on the name of Baal from morning even until noon, saying, O Baal, hear us. But there was no voice, nor any that answered. And they leaped upon the altar which was made.
(27) And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked.

If you're not familiar with the account, go ahead and read it.

Right now folks like Lon are stuck between two opinions. One one hand there is the claim that God is love, that Jesus is God in the flesh and in seeing Jesus we have indeed seen God, that his love and mercy are endless and he takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked.

On the other hand, following the traditions of the men that martyred and killed their opponents, their is a starkly contrasting and contradictory belief that God really is a closet psychopath that takes delight in designing a system to cause infinite torment to those that lack the faith to repent of sin and adopt the love of God, to become like him. But ironically, anyone that actually had the attributes that they believe of God they would deem as the devil himself. Although God says we are to become perfect like him, we all know in our hearts that anyone who would actually be as they now describe God to be would be the embodiment of evil.

How long will they halt between two opinions? They sharply contradict, and one would not abide the other. They are two different gods. Only one is biblical, only one is the true God. So if it takes a little satire to shove the contrast in people's faces, I am past caring if it offends a few folk that haven't the courage to own up to what it is they say they believe.

Caino said:
I cant tell if you are joking or not? Fear is the beginning of wisdom of the Lord, not threats of an ISIS like God.

But I have wondered if perhaps people who are mentally degenerate enough to believe in such a sadistic monster may in some way be protected by entertaining such an idea? In other words, if they realized how nice God was they might take him for granted and hurt themselves?

Lon · May 22, 2017

Rosenritter said:
Lon, your answer is confusing in a few aspects:

1) How are "Jewish sinners" any different in the eyes of God or their need for preaching than any other type of sinner? I thought that Peter and Paul ironed this out back in the book of Acts.

Jesus did not eat with gentiles. Try to see differences between life before and after the Lord Jesus Christ's death burial, and resurrection. They are stark and need to be paid attention to. Blending time-lines will continue to create confusion for you.

2) Death is the cessation of life. That is its most fundamental definition. If you wish to defy this definition, show where the Bible defines it differently. Arbitrarily changing the meaning of words inside out and upside down at your whim is indeed the method of cults, not sound scriptural interpretation.

No! Read here, all the way down and stop asserting what you haven't the foggiest of ideas about.

3) Are you not aware that we know exactly when Adam died? Nine hundred and thirty years later, IF you believe the scripture instead of making up nonsense like "He died spiritually that day."

See Genesis 2:17;3:7
Will you please learn instead of being arrogant?

Genesis 5:5 KJV
(5) And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

Exactly. After you read the link I gave, what did you learn? See Strong's H4191

I don't think you have a single scripture that tells us that Adam "died spiritually" or died twice. In fact, Paul tells us quite the opposite. Maybe you should teach Paul? Paul says that "It is appointed unto men once to die, and then the judgment" ... nothing about dying TWICE before the judgment.

Dang, I really wish you knew more than you don't know

I have patience if you'll place your impatience and arrogance aside. Adam died twice. We do not. We are born spiritually dead. That is why we must be 'born again.' 2 Corinthians 5:17

Hebrews 9:27 KJV
(27) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Now there is a second death, but it is completely different than what you just said. The first death is what brings us to our grave, the second death follows the judgment and involves being cast into a consuming fire.

AND people born spiritually dead, are dead already. When talking of life and death, we MUST distinguish between sinners and the saved regarding life and death, and we must understand the difference between BC and AD regarding Christ's work on the cross.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

So listen: 1) All unbelievers are 'born' dead. (first death? I'll let you look this up so you aren't just getting my view). 2) All men, saved or not, die a physical death (second death?). 3) Revelation 21:8 What precisely is it talking about? Must it necessarily be annihilation? CAN physical flames burn an incorporeal spirit? What is God telling us? If you can answer any of these questions, without me, instead of naysaying or chucking them away, even if you cannot find scriptures for them, you'll be two steps further, imho, than you've ever been.

Whatever it was that you just repeated was a doctrine and/or philosophy which is not from the Bible. From the first death we are buried and rise again. From the second death one is burnt by fire and becomes ash beneath the feet of the righteous. That's biblical. Not your story. Stop making stuff up and pretending it's scripture!

Stop making rash judgements! Ask first. You don't know the bible well enough to make this assessment and SHOULD ask first. There is too much you don't know.

Malachi 4:1-3 KJV
(1) For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
(2) But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
(3) And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Please listen?

Rosenritter · May 22, 2017

Lon, for a supposedly educated guy you sound quite foolish.

a) Do you know what a Sadducee is? Acts 23:8, "For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection..." So considering that I am chiding you for rejecting the resurrection of the dead as our sole hope of eternal life, you're left looking pretty stupid and/or snarky here.

b) You're telling me that Peter spoke to the assembled multitude on Pentecost, which was "Prior to Jesus' resurrection?" A quick glance at the context would save you the embarrassment. Have you been reading any of these scriptures I've been giving you? (It hasn't seemed like it.)

Acts 2:34-36 KJV
(34) For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
(35) Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
(36) Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Just in case you missed this in all your Greek and Religion classes, Pentecost is fifty days after Christ's resurrection. Oh, and if you have trouble remembering that, you can always use that Acts follows the Gospels chronologically.

3) It's not "my way or the highway" - you're arguing against Christ's words, not mine. Jesus said "Tell the vision to no man" and you're arguing that it wasn't a vision. I didn't write those gospels. Now if you want to argue that the gospel itself isn't authentic, I'm sure you can find company in that regard. Don't try that with me.

Lon said:
Just a note: You didn't change gears. It means snarky, arrogant, and unlearned are your character traits. You showed this to me, unedited and switching no gears. You have problems and are in need of an education. YOU are the one that is wrong. Sorry young pup. Fact.

#1) You are a Sadducee. The Lord Jesus Christ corrected them. They were wrong. You are wrong. /of that story. You are a young pup full of yourself and it is frankly, pathetic and sad. You should be learning, not posturing. Why are you posturing? Easy: Emotions you cannot control and to the point of rejection of God, no matter who He is. Job wasn't kidding! "Though He slay me, yet I will praise Him!" You are nowhere near there. Until then, you cannot be His disciple. You will be the slave of and for the world and what 'they' believe is right.

Young pup: ὅραμα "What you have seen"
You are the one making things up to fit your theology. Plain and simply, I want what God says. Nothing more. Nothing less. I will NOT make excuses for God. Whoever He is, however He is, that is my God. I will NOT attempt to conform Him to my image. I'm Unholy. "I" need to be conformed to His image. Not so these others in thread. You are making a bed being unequally yoked. Choose God, not anti-Christians (and that is no slam, they have said they are against the Bible and Jesus' work on the Cross, from their own mouths. They will never deny it. It is true).

:nono: Your way or the highway doesn't work, simpy because you are not, in point of fact, this smart. You are a young pup that needs to take lessons from godly men and women. Not pagans.

:doh: LEARN goofy! This was prior to His resurrection. All of these were in Paradise at this time!

Hello!? McFly?!! Prior to Jesus' Resurrection. Anybody home?

Yes. Learn ANYTHING yet???

No! Ignoring your ignorant putting together of events and happenings. You are the one that is wrong. Can a young arrogant know-it-all pup be taught? If not, you can just go the route of the rest of the cults and have the praises of men. Me? Nobody adoring me in thread, yet I'm telling them the truth. I'm looking for a different reward. I don't care about anything, nothing, but being Biblical. Not the case with two in this thread, and I'm not exaggerating. They both will tell you if you ask them. If not, I can grab the quotes for you fairly quickly. The other? A JW throwing in with the two that blatantly reject anything in the Bible that isn't what their rant book says.
This is your sign. As for me and my house, we WILL serve the Lord Job 13:15

Eagles Wings · May 22, 2017

@Lon

Spot on!

The Spirit of the Lord is at work here.

Prayers for you going forth, brother.

Lon · May 22, 2017

Rosenritter said:
Right now folks like Lon are stuck between two opinions. One one hand there is the claim that God is love, that Jesus is God in the flesh and in seeing Jesus we have indeed seen God, that his love and mercy are endless and he takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked.

On the other hand, following the traditions of the men that martyred and killed their opponents, their is a starkly contrasting and contradictory belief that God really is a closet psychopath that takes delight in designing a system to cause infinite torment to those that lack the faith to repent of sin and adopt the love of God, to become like him. But ironically, anyone that actually had the attributes that they believe of God they would deem as the devil himself. Although God says we are to become perfect like him, we all know in our hearts that anyone who would actually be as they now describe God to be would be the embodiment of evil.

How long will they halt between two opinions? They sharply contradict, and one would not abide the other. They are two different gods. Only one is biblical, only one is the true God. So if it takes a little satire to shove the contrast in people's faces, I am past caring if it offends a few folk that haven't the courage to own up to what it is they say they believe.

Incorrect. You 'assume' from your view of God and His love, that eternal torment cannot be a part of His universe. I, on the other-hand, think you are incorrect in your foundational premises. It has nothing to do with God being evil. Not a whit. Not an iota.

"How then can hell exist?"

1) I don't know, BUT I will not explain it away either. 2) The Lord Jesus Christ was ALL GOOD, even when He related Luke 16:19-31

He didn't balk. He didn't bat an eye and made NO QUALMS that the rich man was in torment, the exact kind of torment spoken of regarding hades in other places. You don't 'get' to relegate it to 1) a parable, it is not a parable, unlike most other stories 2) fiction.

All of the Lord Jesus Christ's parables were true: They had direct applications to our lives and were given for that purpose. You can Google this, but Luke 16:19-31 is very unlike a parable in at least 10 ways, that make many scholars doubt it is a parable at all, and I agree with them based on those objections. They are solid observations that I believe demand a hearing. The least of which is that the Lord Jesus Christ related that story with the rich man in constant anguish, in a fire. There is not softening that blow, imho. Again, I'm convinced it is not a parable. It does not make God a tyrant. We have no idea and casting blame as a first reactionary act, is what the Accuser does. I do not follow him any longer. My first action is no longer a knee-jerk reaction. God is good "WHETHER" I know it or not by my feeble traipses into morality. Therefore, my dissonance is rather over "what it looks like" rather than actuals. I don't care what 'seems' to be the case. Innocent until proven guilty, for you and I. God has no need for the court room. He is innocent. Period. Period.

Lon · May 22, 2017

Rosenritter said:
Lon, for a supposedly educated guy you sound quite foolish.

"Supposedly." See ya around Ritter. You are not ready for me today, and perhaps never. When you grow up, mature in Him a little more, Let me know. I'm done and will not be dragging my Lord and Savior through the gutter for your guilty pleasure. :wave:

CherubRam · May 22, 2017

[FONT=&quot]Genesis 2:17[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die." [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Genesis 3:3[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]God never said they could not examine the fruit.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Genesis 3:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
"You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The serpent’s doctrine is that there is eternal life in Hell. Note: The word Hell is nowhere to be found in the original bible text.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Deuteronomy 30:15[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Deuteronomy 32:39[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
"See now that I myself am He! There is no God besides me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal, and no one can deliver out of my hand. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1 Samuel 2:6[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
"The LORD brings death and makes alive; he brings down to the grave and raises up. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Proverbs 2:18[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
For her house leads down to death, and her paths to the death of spirits. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Proverbs 8:36[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
But whoever fails to find me harms himself; all who hate me love death."[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Proverbs 11:19[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
The truly righteous man attains life, but he who pursues evil goes to his death.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Proverbs 16:25[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Proverbs 23:14[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Psalm 56:13[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
For you have delivered me from death and my feet from stumbling, that I may walk before God in the light of life. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Psalm 118:18[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
The LORD has chastened me severely, but he has not given me over to death[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Hosea 13:14[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
"I will ransom them from the power of the grave ; I will redeem them from death. Where, O death, are your plagues? Where, O grave, is your destruction?[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ezekiel 33:11[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?'[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ezekiel 18:32[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live![FONT=&quot] [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ezekiel 18:23[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
I do not take any pleasure in the death of the wicked declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, I am pleased when they turn from their ways and live?[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Matthew 16:28[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death, but they will see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Mark 9:1[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
And he said to them, "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death, but they will see the kingdom of God come with power."[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Luke 9:27[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death, but they will see the kingdom of God."[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]John 5:24[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Hebrews 5:7[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Hebrews 6:1[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,… [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]James 5:20[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Revelation 1:18[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]Gehenna[/FONT][FONT=&quot]). [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Revelation 6:8[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]Gehenna)[/FONT][FONT=&quot] was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Revelation 20:13[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades (grave) gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Revelation 20:14[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Then death and Hades (grave) were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Genesis 18:25[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?”

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Matthew 10:28[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
And do not fear them which can kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in (hell / Gehenna. )

A soul consist of both body and spirit.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Ecclesiastes 9:5[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Job 27:8[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
For what hope have the godless when they are cut off, when God takes away their life?[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

Rosenritter · May 22, 2017

Got it Lon. Let's review for a moment:

* You've declared that you are so superior that we should accept your word instead of scripture.
* Peter spoke on Pentecost before the resurrection of Jesus.
* I'm a Sadducee for preaching the resurrection.
* Death is life, hell is Paradise, love is infinite cruelty, good is evil.
* Adam died twice and will die a third time.
* Anyone that uses the scripture as their authority is ignorant and should learn instead from theologians.

Lon · May 22, 2017

Lon said:
See ya around Ritter. You are not ready for me today, and perhaps never. When you grow up, mature in Him a little more, Let me know. I'm done and will not be dragging my Lord and Savior through the gutter for your guilty pleasure. :wave:

Rosenritter · May 22, 2017

CherubRam, does it say Adam and Eve will die in the day they eat of the tree, or that they should surely die? My King James, which does make use of the precise grammar between will and shall, chose "shall" for that passage.

Genesis 2:17 KJV
(17) But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Day X, God speaks to Adam and Eve and gives the warning.

Day Y, Eve thinks about the Tree. Does she take of it? No. Is she sentenced to death, shall she "surely die?" No. Will she die in the future? No reason why she should.

Day Z, Eve takes of the tree and eats of it. Is she sentenced to death? Yes. Shall she surely die? Yes. Is she dead? No. Will she now die? Yes, it's a surety because God has set the decree that very day.

I think a few people's philosophy about multiple deaths are misshaped through confusing the grammar. Were people willing to learn (though an impossibility for those who are wise in their own eyes) we could look to examples of how the grammar works from the bible itself.

1 Samuel 18:21 KJV
(21) And Saul said, I will give him her, that she may be a snare to him, and that the hand of the Philistines may be against him. Wherefore Saul said to David, Thou shalt this day be my son in law in the one of the twain.

How much time passed before David became Saul's son in law? Saul gave him a task to go on a military raid and to come back with 100 trophies as part of the bargain. What took place that day, the shalt (the decree) or the being (the effect?)

CherubRam said:
Genesis 2:17
but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."
Genesis 3:3
but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "
God never said they could not examine the fruit.

Genesis 3:4
"You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman.
The serpent’s doctrine is that there is eternal life in Hell. Note: The word Hell is nowhere to be found in the original bible text.

Deuteronomy 30:15
See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction.
Deuteronomy 32:39
"See now that I myself am He! There is no God besides me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal, and no one can deliver out of my hand.
1 Samuel 2:6
"The LORD brings death and makes alive; he brings down to the grave and raises up.
Proverbs 2:18
For her house leads down to death, and her paths to the death of spirits.
Proverbs 8:36
But whoever fails to find me harms himself; all who hate me love death."
Proverbs 11:19
The truly righteous man attains life, but he who pursues evil goes to his death.
Proverbs 16:25
There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.
Proverbs 23:14
Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death.
Psalm 56:13
For you have delivered me from death and my feet from stumbling, that I may walk before God in the light of life.
Psalm 118:18
The LORD has chastened me severely, but he has not given me over to death.
Hosea 13:14
"I will ransom them from the power of the grave ; I will redeem them from death. Where, O death, are your plagues? Where, O grave, is your destruction?
Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?'
Ezekiel 18:32
I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!
Ezekiel 18:23
I do not take any pleasure in the death of the wicked declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, I am pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
Matthew 16:28
I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death, but they will see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."
Mark 9:1
And he said to them, "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death, but they will see the kingdom of God come with power."
Luke 9:27
I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death, but they will see the kingdom of God."
John 5:24
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
Hebrews 5:7
During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.
Hebrews 6:1
Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,…
James 5:20
remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.
Revelation 1:18
I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades (Gehenna).
Revelation 6:8
I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades (Gehenna) was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.
Revelation 20:13
The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades (grave) gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.
Revelation 20:14
Then death and Hades (grave) were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

Genesis 18:25
Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?”

Matthew 10:28
And do not fear them which can kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in (hell / Gehenna. )

A soul consist of both body and spirit.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten.

Job 27:8
For what hope have the godless when they are cut off, when God takes away their life?

Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

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