ECT Water Baptism Not For Today

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Why do you go against what Jesus taught ? Jesus said to the Apostles go forth and teach and baptize the nations. Jerry, you are on the wrong side of this.

Yes, the Twelve were told that. However, there is a good reason why they didn't go to the nations and Peter had to have a special revelation from the LORD before he would go to a Gentile. In fact, when the disciples were scattered after Stephen was killed the disciples went everywhere preaching the gospel to none but the Jews only (Acts 11:19). Do you know why they did that and why Peter, James and John agreed to confine their ministry to the Jews (Gal.2:9)?

Were they disobeying the Lord Jesus since He told them to go into the whole world and preach and baptize all who believed?

Here is what Paul said about water baptism:

"For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect" (1 Cor.1:17).​

You do understand that when you teach to not do as Jesus taught to do you are an ENEMY of the cross ?

Do you teach that we should do what the Lord Jesus commanded here?:

"Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not" (Mt.23:1-3).

If not, why not?
 

dodge

New member
Yes, the Twelve were told that. However, there is a good reason why they didn't go to the nations and Peter had to have a special revelation from the LORD before he would go to a Gentile. In fact, when the disciples were scattered after Stephen was killed the disciples went everywhere preaching the gospel to none but the Jews only (Acts 11:19). Do you know why they did that and why Peter, James and John agreed to confine their ministry to the Jews (Gal.2:9)?

Were they disobeying the Lord Jesus since He told them to go into the whole world and preach and baptize all who believed?

Here is what Paul said about water baptism:

"For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect" (1 Cor.1:17).​



Do you teach that we should do what the Lord Jesus commanded here?:

"Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not" (Mt.23:1-3).

If not, why not?

Jesus also said to come unto Him....I guess you do not feel the need to do that either ?
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
I said
The purpose of it was to receive the Holy Spirit. Maybe that is why so many people don't know the Holy Spirit.

No one received the Holy Spirit as a result of being baptized with water. Instead, they received a gift bestowed by the Holy Spirit, the gift of tongues. The Spirit is received by faith (Gal.3:2), not faith plus being baptized in water.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Jesus also said to come unto Him....I guess you do not feel the need to do that either ?

Do you teach that we should do what the Lord Jesus commanded here?:

"Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not" (Mt.23:1-3).​

If not, why not?

The Twelve were told to go into the whole world and preach and baptize all those who believed. However, there is a good reason why they didn't go to the nations and Peter had to have a special revelation from the LORD before he would go to a Gentile. In fact, when the disciples were scattered after Stephen was killed the disciples went everywhere preaching the gospel to none but the Jews only (Acts 11:19). Do you know why they did that and why Peter, James and John agreed to confine their ministry to the Jews (Gal.2:9)?

Were they disobeying the Lord Jesus since He told them to go into the whole world and preach and baptize all who believed?

Here is what Paul said about water baptism:

"For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect" (1 Cor.1:17).​
 

steko

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Nah , it is those in MAD that has brought and believe in another gospel.

You do understand that when you teach to not do as Jesus taught to do you are an ENEMY of the cross ?

Hi Dodge!
You're trying to operate in a period which the Apostle Paul calls 'time past' in which Gentiles were without Christ, aliens from the citizenship of Israel, strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without GOD in the world.
It's impossible to go back and insert yourself in that period and think that the Lord Jesus is speaking to you or that you have any possible avenue of approaching GOD in that period.



Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:


We are in what Paul calls the 'but now' period which is a different administration/dispensation. It is the only framework in which we, whether Jew or Gentile, can possibly operate and approach GOD. Everyone who seeks GOD is made nigh to Him, not through Israel, but directly through faith the blood of Christ.
And....this administration was set up by the ascended Lord Jesus Christ through the Apostle Paul.

Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Hi Dodge!
You're trying to operate in a period which the Apostle Paul calls 'time past' in which Gentiles were without Christ, aliens from the citizenship of Israel, strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without GOD in the world.
It's impossible to go back and insert yourself in that period and think that the Lord Jesus is speaking to you or that you have any possible avenue of approaching GOD in that period.



Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:


We are in what Paul calls the 'but now' period which is a different administration/dispensation. It is the only framework in which we, whether Jew or Gentile, can possibly operate and approach GOD. Everyone who seeks GOD is made nigh to Him, not through Israel, but directly through faith the blood of Christ.
And....this administration was set up by the ascended Lord Jesus Christ through the Apostle Paul.

Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

:first:
 

dodge

New member
steko;4995854]Hi Dodge!
You're trying to operate in a period which the Apostle Paul calls 'time past' in which Gentiles were without Christ, aliens from the citizenship of Israel, strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without GOD in the world.
It's impossible to go back and insert yourself in that period and think that the Lord Jesus is speaking to you or that you have any possible avenue of approaching GOD in that period.

Steko, isn't that the same as saying Jesus and what He taught is irrelevant ?

Some things Jesus taught was for Israel and much was universal.

If baptism was done away with why then did Jesus and Paul himself get baptized ?

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Baptism has nothing to do with circumcision !

We are in what Paul calls the 'but now' period which is a different administration/dispensation. It is the only framework in which we, whether Jew or Gentile, can possibly operate and approach GOD. Everyone who seeks GOD is made nigh to Him, not through Israel, but directly through faith the blood of Christ.
And....this administration was set up by the ascended Lord Jesus Christ through the Apostle Paul.

EXACTLY as Jesus taught when He said ."come unto me you that are heavy laden and I will give you rest" etc.
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

It started way back in Genesis 3 and was fulfilled with Jesus' ascension how then can everything Jesus taught be placed under what Paul taught when Paul Himself taught to follow Jesus ?
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Dodge, water baptism is only for Jesus' disciples, those who comply with his teachings.

It is only those who obey him who will receive eternal life. (Hebrews 5:9)
 

DAN P

Well-known member
Nah , it is those in MAD that has brought and believe in another gospel.

You do understand that when you teach to not do as Jesus taught to do you are an ENEMY of the cross ?


Hi and do you explain Phil 3:18 means ??

There are 4 verbs in that verse and the second verb I HAVE TOLD is in the Greek IMPECT TENSE and care to explain what it means ??

It means that during Paul's ministry , at the BEGINNING he told them and THEN STOPPED TELLING that they are ENEMINES of the Cross of Christ !!

Now you know what the Holy Spirit said about those so-called believers !!

dan p
 

oatmeal

Well-known member
Amazing! With all the scripture that I listed where both Jesus C and John the B, prophets no less, tell us that John's water baptism would be replaced, people still want to believe opinion instead believing the truth.
 

Patrick Cronin

New member
You say that 'without the Scriptures it would only be an opinion'. Yet is is crystal clear from your statement that other people understand the same Scriptures in a different way from yourself. This is because the human mind, applying itself to understanding the 'Word', can never get further than an opinion on what the Scriptures mean.(For instance on whether water Baptism is essential.)
If you want to know for certain (that is, without it being an opinion) you have to consult the tradition of the Church and the teaching of the successors of the Apostles- the leaders of the Church-who were given the Holy Spirit specifically for that purpose. That is how the Catholic church has always operated, by being guided by the Holy Spirit to teach the truth to humanity, including giving the true interpretation of the Scriptures. Patrick Cronin.
 

dodge

New member
Amazing! With all the scripture that I listed where both Jesus C and John the B, prophets no less, tell us that John's water baptism would be replaced, people still want to believe opinion instead believing the truth.

It is never said in scripture that water baptism would be replaced. If that was true why then did Paul and every person in the NT that got saved get water baptized except for the thief hanging on the cross and of course he never had the opportunity ?
 

dodge

New member
You say that 'without the Scriptures it would only be an opinion'. Yet is is crystal clear from your statement that other people understand the same Scriptures in a different way from yourself. This is because the human mind, applying itself to understanding the 'Word', can never get further than an opinion on what the Scriptures mean.(For instance on whether water Baptism is essential.)
If you want to know for certain (that is, without it being an opinion) you have to consult the tradition of the Church and the teaching of the successors of the Apostles- the leaders of the Church-who were given the Holy Spirit specifically for that purpose. That is how the Catholic church has always operated, by being guided by the Holy Spirit to teach the truth to humanity, including giving the true interpretation of the Scriptures. Patrick Cronin.


Bad advice if practiced ! The Roman Catholic church will lead you right into idolatry, Mary worship, and pope worship.

You would then believe a sinful man with the title of "priest" can call Jesus out of heaven and place Him in a wafer to be eaten, which is not scriptural.
 

DAN P

Well-known member
You say that 'without the Scriptures it would only be an opinion'. Yet is is crystal clear from your statement that other people understand the same Scriptures in a different way from yourself. This is because the human mind, applying itself to understanding the 'Word', can never get further than an opinion on what the Scriptures mean.(For instance on whether water Baptism is essential.)
If you want to know for certain (that is, without it being an opinion) you have to consult the tradition of the Church and the teaching of the successors of the Apostles- the leaders of the Church-who were given the Holy Spirit specifically for that purpose. That is how the Catholic church has always operated, by being guided by the Holy Spirit to teach the truth to humanity, including giving the true interpretation of the Scriptures. Patrick Cronin.


Hi and if you are RCC person , where in the bible do you find the Greek word for PURGATORY or find the Greek word for POPE as the NT was written in Greek and not latin ?\

dan p
 

turbosixx

New member
I said
The purpose of it was to receive the Holy Spirit. Maybe that is why so many people don't know the Holy Spirit.

Unchecked Copy Box Act 2:38

Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Sorry, your previous post didn't exactly say that and I don't want to assume what someone gets out of a scripture. This post is exactly what I'm looking for. You stated the purpose then backed it up with a scripture. I didn't think it was too much to ask but you are one of the few who have done it.

Do you know of any other purposes?
 

turbosixx

New member
We are in what Paul calls the 'but now' period which is a different administration/dispensation. It is the only framework in which we, whether Jew or Gentile, can possibly operate and approach GOD. Everyone who seeks GOD is made nigh to Him, not through Israel, but directly through faith the blood of Christ.
And....this administration was set up by the ascended Lord Jesus Christ through the Apostle Paul.

Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

I agree with you except at the point of when it began. Verse 13 says by the blood of Christ, that's when it began.

In the times past, the Jews were under the law and the Gentiles were without the law. Christ's sacrifice ended the law for the Jews and opened the door for the Gentiles.
Eph. 2:14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.

How did those on Pentecost have their sins forgiven and receive the Holy Spirit? The old covenant, the new covenant or something else?
 

turbosixx

New member
You say that 'without the Scriptures it would only be an opinion'. Yet is is crystal clear from your statement that other people understand the same Scriptures in a different way from yourself. This is because the human mind, applying itself to understanding the 'Word', can never get further than an opinion on what the Scriptures mean.(For instance on whether water Baptism is essential.)
If you want to know for certain (that is, without it being an opinion) you have to consult the tradition of the Church and the teaching of the successors of the Apostles- the leaders of the Church-who were given the Holy Spirit specifically for that purpose. That is how the Catholic church has always operated, by being guided by the Holy Spirit to teach the truth to humanity, including giving the true interpretation of the Scriptures. Patrick Cronin.

I'm going to disagree with you. The apostles where guided by the Holy Spirit and the Spirit tells us when we read we can understand.
Eph. 3:4 By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand scripture. How do you think the apostles did it in the first century. They wrote letters that we now have and can read. All it takes is an honest heart.

The rcc has committed atrocity after atrocity and you expect me to believe they are guided by the Holy Spirit? They go against what we know for a fact to be inspired writings.
 

turbosixx

New member
Water baptism is not a “requirement” for salvation since God does the saving, but is something Christians get to do in order to help them.
New Christians may not tap into everything that is available to them to help them experience the transformation:

I know that I needed everything God could provide to assure me of my conversion, both outwardly and mentally. God wants you to physically feel the experience of what is going on Spiritually.
You need to add to your conversion a definite time place and physical experience, which God has provided for you. We talk about being “Born again”, which comes from Nicodemus encounter with Christ (John 3 :1-21):

Being “born again” is what Jesus told Nicodemus he need to do. This requires some thinking, because Jesus does not address the questions or comments that are verbalized, but directs his comments to the persons next step in their personal spiritual development (what is on their heart spiritually). Jesus is not making some general philosophical statement (like Buddha might make) but is always addressing the audience He is talking to. We have to get into the context.
What did Nicodemus need to do next in his spiritual development?
What does Nicodemus need to be doing next? (study the Old Testament, become one of the followers of Jesus right then and there, Confess, repent, etc.)
The first thing Nicodemus might do at least is what he already knows he should do? Is that not where you would start? So what is that?
Since Nicodemus is still part of the Sanhedrin, he would not have been immersed baptized by John’s baptism. That would have got him thrown out of the Sanhedrin, but being smart Nicodemus would know he should be baptized.
John’s baptism would have been a hot topic among the religious scholars, yet the answer was obvious and they all know it (remember Jesus using it against them and causing them to quit asking him questions?)
Jesus is not going to hand out the answer to Nicodemus, since Nicodemus knows the answer, but he will make Nicodemus think about it hard, since it would already be on his mind.


Christian water baptism as seen in scripture seems to fit the “born again” scenario Christ was talking about since it: Is always adult (there are only two examples that “might include infants” but nothing definite, all the others are adult believers) water immersion to be a physical outward representation of what had or is happening spiritually in the person being baptized. It is mainly to help the individual being baptized to better grasp what is going on, but it can “witness” to others observing the baptism. It has the elements of going down under the water (burying the old man), placing your dependence in another; the person baptizing you (surrendering your life to God), being washed (having your sins washed away), rising out of the water (rising from the old dead body), and stepping forth out onto the earth (a new person). The person is walking out into the hugs of his new family. It is also a sign of your humility, since it is a humbling act anyone can simple allow someone to do it to them (so not a work) and since humility has been shown in the accept of charity (God’s free gift of undeserving forgiveness) it should just support and add to the memory of that acceptance. To refuse Christian water baptism when it is readily available might mean you are not ready to handle other responsibility like having the indwelling Holy Spirit and you are hurting yourself.
Why not be baptized again (there is no rule against this) to experience all you can from being baptized?
Yes, Ro. 10 is silent about baptism, but silence is not a proof for anything and baptism was not the topic being discussed, the Jews had to believe first, so baptism would be down the road.
Is the real problem with humility, since adult water baptism is a humbling act?
Is the problem with “witnessing” since baptism help other Christians remember what they went through?
The whole “argument” about the “one” baptism having to be “spiritual baptism” so we do not need to (or even shouldn’t) be water immersed is not supported by scriptural examples, since everyone that was “baptized” by the Holy Spirit seems to have also been water baptized.

I liked what you said and agree with some of it but not all. If you could please list the purposes of water baptism and provide backing scripture that would be great.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
It is never said in scripture that water baptism would be replaced.

The apostles were sent out to all the world to preach and to baptize with water (Mk.16:15-17). However, there is a good reason why they didn't go to the nations and why Peter had to have a special revelation from the LORD before he would go to a Gentile. In fact, when the disciples were scattered after Stephen was killed the disciples went everywhere preaching the gospel to none but the Jews only (Acts 11:19). Do you know why they did that and why Peter, James and John agreed to confine their ministry to the Jews (Gal.2:9)?

Were they disobeying the Lord Jesus since He told them to go into the whole world and preach and baptize all who believed?

Since they were first given the commission to preach to the Gentiles then why was Paul later made the Apostle of the Gentiles?
 
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