Calvinism: A Detour Around Christ and His Gospel

Clete

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fishrovmen said:
I neither affirm nor deny the claim that Calvin taught justification by faith and predestination because I AM ignorant of his teachings. That is why I asked Robert to post the source for his claim.
None of the quotes you posted here mention justification. If Calvin wrote about justification by faith alone in the work I referenced, then according to Robert, he changed his mind at some point before or after.
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The point, which I clearly stated was that, according to Calvin, nothing AT ALL happens that was not predestined. Not faith, not justification, not eating boogers when your six. According to Calvin, if it happens, it does so because of God's immutable, timeless decree and for NO OTHER reason.

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Robert Pate said:
Taken from, "A Compend of Luther's Theology" Conversations with Luther, pp 135.

"When a man begins to discuss predestination, the temptation is like an inextinguishable fire: the more he disputes, the more he despairs. Our Lord God is opposed to this disputation and accordingly he has provided against it baptism, the Word, the sacraments and various signs. In these we should trust and say: "I am baptized, I believe in Jesus Christ; what does it concern me, whether or not I am predestinated.?" He has given us ground to stand on, that is Jesus Christ, and through him we may climb to heaven. He is the one way and the gate to the Father. but when we begin in the devil's name to build first on the roof above, scorning the ground, then we fall! . . . I forget all that Christ and God are, when I get to thinking about this matter, AND COME TO BELIEVE THAT GOD IS A VILLAIN. We ought to remain by the word, in which God is revealed to us and salvation is offered, if we believe it. Moreover in trying to understand predestination, we forget God, we cease to praise and BEGIN TO BLASPHEME. in Christ however, are hid all treasures; without him none may be had. Therefore we should give no place whatever to this argument concerning predestination".
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This doesn't exactly say that Luther rejected the doctrine of predestination. He just didn't want to argue about it (basically speaking - I know its a bit more complicated than that).

There is no doubt that Augustine is the one who introduced that doctrines we associate with Calvinism into the Christian dogma. There is also no doubt that Luther was an Augustinian monk and that he did not reject the Catholic church because of it's teachings about predestination.

Having said that, I don't disagree with your premise. That being the notion that Calvinism's predestination is antithetical to the gospel. I'm just splitting hairs with you on the Luther vs. Calvin thing.

Interestingly (tragically) Calvinists actually believe that predestination IS the gospel! Amazing.

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Robert Pate

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Clete said:
This doesn't exactly say that Luther rejected the doctrine of predestination. He just didn't want to argue about it (basically speaking - I know its a bit more complicated than that).

There is no doubt that Augustine is the one who introduced that doctrines we associate with Calvinism into the Christian dogma. There is also no doubt that Luther was an Augustinian monk and that he did not reject the Catholic church because of it's teachings about predestination.

Having said that, I don't disagree with your premise. That being the notion that Calvinism's predestination is antithetical to the gospel. I'm just splitting hairs with you on the Luther vs. Calvin thing.

Interestingly (tragically) Calvinists actually believe that predestination IS the gospel! Amazing.

Clete
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Luther is not the authority when it comes to the doctrine of Justification by faith. As a matter of fact both Luther and Calvin were still baptizing babies after they left the Catholic church. There were also other things that they continued to believe and practice that were related to Catholicism.

One cannot believe that they are justified by faith and also believe that they are predestinated. The two doctrines are in conflict with each other. The article that I posted concerning what Luther said about predestination is a challenge to Calvinist to return to Christ and his Gospel. Luther said, "I forget all that Christ and God are, when I get to thinking about this matter and come to believe that God is a villain" That is what Calvinism does, it makes God a villain. And the it makes his Son Jesus Christ a failure. If Jesus did Not atone for the sins of the world, then Jesus is not Lord. If one does not believe that Jesus is Lord they do not have saving faith, John 8:24.

When it comes to the Gospel and justification by faith Paul is the authority. However Paul did not have a concordance and a printed Bible like we have today. I know of some Christian scholars that know as much about the historical Gospel of Jesus Christ as Paul did. if not more. We are very privileged today to have all of the resources to know and understand what Jesus accomplished for us in the Gospel.
 
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Robert Pate said:
Luther is not the authority when it comes to the doctrine of Justification by faith. As a matter of fact both Luther and Calvin were still baptizing babies after they left the Catholic church. There were also other things that they continued to believe and practice that were related to Catholicism.
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I didn't suggest otherwise.

All I'm telling you is that Calvin didn't invent the doctrines of Calvinism. He merely formalized and wrote down what the reformed church taught. Most of what we know of as Calvinism is just the reformed version of Augustinian doctrine.

One cannot believe that they are justified by faith and also believe that they are predestinated. The two doctrines are in conflict with each other. The article that I posted concerning what Luther said about predestination is a challenge to Calvinist to return to Christ and his Gospel. Luther said, "I forget all that Christ and God are, when I get to thinking about this matter and come to believe that God is a villain" That is what Calvinism does, it makes God a villain. And the it makes his Son Jesus Christ a failure. If Jesus did Not atone for the sins of the world, then Jesus is not Lord. If one does not believe that Jesus is Lord they do not have saving faith, John 8:24.
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This isn't entirely true. Luther didn't understand how predestination could fit with salvation by faith and chose to place his emphasis on the later while Calvin emphasized the former but that doesn't mean that Luther rejected the whole notion of predestination. He didn't! He was simply willing to ignore what you and I understand is a contradiction.

When it comes to the Gospel and justification by faith Paul is the authority. However Paul did not have a concordance and a printed Bible like we have today. I know of some Christian scholars that know as much about the historical Gospel of Jesus Christ as Paul did. if not more. We are very privileged today to have all of the resources to know and understand what Jesus accomplished for us in the Gospel.
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I agree with this entirely.
Interestingly, it is Paul's writings that Calvinists most often use as their most prominent proof-texts. And so, it isn't the naked bible that we need. In addition to God's word, we need His wisdom (aka sound reason).

Resting in Him,
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Robert Pate

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Clete said:
I didn't suggest otherwise.

All I'm telling you is that Calvin didn't invent the doctrines of Calvinism. He merely formalized and wrote down what the reformed church taught. Most of what we know of as Calvinism is just the reformed version of Augustinian doctrine.


This isn't entirely true. Luther didn't understand how predestination could fit with salvation by faith and chose to place his emphasis on the later while Calvin emphasized the former but that doesn't mean that Luther rejected the whole notion of predestination. He didn't! He was simply willing to ignore what you and I understand is a contradiction.


I agree with this entirely.
Interestingly, it is Paul's writings that Calvinists most often use as their most prominent proof-texts. And so, it isn't the naked bible that we need. In addition to God's word, we need His wisdom (aka sound reason).

Resting in Him,
Clete
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So we agree that the Gospel and Calvinism are conflicting doctrines. You can't believe both and will adhere to one or the other. Calvinist frequently quote Paul, but Paul didn't really promote Calvinism. The word "predestination" only appears in the Bible 4 Times and none of it is related to ones salvation. On the other hand, words like "Gospel" "believe" "faith" "justified" "justification" appear in the Bible hundreds of times. It appears to me that Calvinism is nothing more than a rejection of the Gospel and justification by faith alone. Luther most certainly didn't want any part of it. I guess he didn't want to make God a villain.
 
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Robert Pate said:
So we agree that the Gospel and Calvinism are conflicting doctrines. You can't believe both and will adhere to one or the other.
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You can believe anything. There are people who believe that the Earth is flat and that Unicorns are real and that shiny rocks improve your health when worn around the neck.

But yes, we are in agreement.

Calvinist frequently quote Paul, but Paul didn't really promote Calvinism.
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True! But they'd say the opposite and someone else would come along and agree with them too.

The word "predestination" only appears in the Bible 4 Times and none of it is related to ones salvation.
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Quite so!

On the other hand, words like "Gospel" "believe" "faith" "justified" "justification" appear in the Bible hundreds of times. It appears to me that Calvinism is nothing more than a rejection of the Gospel and justification by faith alone. Luther most certainly didn't want any part of it. I guess he didn't want to make God a villain.
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This is right but it only really applies the educated Calvinists. There are thousands, probably millions of people who call themselves Calvinist and/or believe in predestination and other Calvinistic doctrines who never think it through and develop for themselves a rationally coherent systematic theology. It never occurs to most Christians who believe in predestination that the doctrine blames everything that happens on God and even when it does they're told that it's "a mystery" that we're not intended to understand and that we must accept such conundrums on faith and let that be the end of it. And then they dutifully comply with the person behind the pulpit whom they consider to be the expert in such matters.

I know of no one active on this website who fits into that category though!

Resting in Him,
Clete
 
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Robert Pate

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Clete said:
You can believe anything. There are people who believe that the Earth is flat and that Unicorns are real and that shiny rocks improve your health when worn around the neck.

But yes, we are in agreement.


True! But they'd say the opposite and someone else would come along and agree with them too.


Quite so!


This is right but it only really applies the educated Calvinists. There are thousands, probably millions of people who call themselves Calvinist and/or believe in predestination and other Calvinistic doctrines who never think it through and develop for themselves a rationally coherent systematic theology. It never occurs to most Christians who believe in predestination that the doctrine blames everything that happens on God and even when it does they're told that it's "a mystery" that we're not intended to understand and that we must accept such conundrums on faith and let that be the end of it. And then they dutifully comply with the person behind the pulpit whom they consider to be the expert in such matters.

I know of no one active on this website who fits into that category though!

Resting in Him,
Clete
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Calvinism like most religions is nothing more than a diversion away from Christ and his Gospel. If you want to believe a lie there are plenty of them to believe. Atleast Luther was seeking the truth and he found it in the Bible in the book of Romans. I don't know what Calvin was seeking, but it was not the truth. He was a tyrant and he thought that God was the same. I have found that whatever you believe about God and his Son Jesus Christ will be reflected in your life. This is why Muslims are a waring people, they believe that Allah is a waring God. The Koran says "Kill the infidels".
 
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Robert Pate said:
Calvinism like most religions is nothing more than a diversion away from Christ and his Gospel. If you want to believe a lie there are plenty of them to believe. Atleast Luther was seeking the truth and he found it in the Bible in the book of Romans. I don't know what Calvin was seeking, but it was not the truth. He was a tyrant and he thought that God was the same. I have found that whatever you believe about God and his Son Jesus Christ will be reflected in your life. This is why Muslims are a waring people, they believe that Allah is a waring God. The Koran says "Kill the infidels".
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I do agree with the thrust of this comment but would warn not to paint with too broad a brush. I wouldn't say that Catholicism's version of God is overly hostile but you've got the Crusades and the Inquisition and I'm sure several other less than bright moments in their history. And there are far more Muslims that lead completely peaceful and normal lives than there are Jihadist terrorists.

Still, while your observation may not hold up entierly in the general sense, I think it does hold true in most cases when it comes to an individual's beliefs about who God is. Although, it could be, and probably is, at least partially the other way around. People's ideas about God very often mirror their relationship with their father. And so rather than their personal behavior having a vertal (God to man) aspect to it, it likely has as much or more of a horizontal (man to man) one as well. Which is to say that, rather than a person's beliefs about God being the cause of their behavior, perhaps both are an effect of something in their past. In any case, they are clearly linked.

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Robert Pate

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Clete said:
I do agree with the thrust of this comment but would warn not to paint with too broad a brush. I wouldn't say that Catholicism's version of God is overly hostile but you've got the Crusades and the Inquisition and I'm sure several other less than bright moments in their history. And there are far more Muslims that lead completely peaceful and normal lives than there are Jihadist terrorists.

Still, while your observation may not hold up entierly in the general sense, I think it does hold true in most cases when it comes to an individual's beliefs about who God is. Although, it could be, and probably is, at least partially the other way around. People's ideas about God very often mirror their relationship with their father. And so rather than their personal behavior having a vertal (God to man) aspect to it, it likely has as much or more of a horizontal (man to man) one as well. Which is to say that, rather than a person's beliefs about God being the cause of their behavior, perhaps both are an effect of something in their past. In any case, they are clearly linked.

Clete
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I have found that all religions are hostile to the Gospel of Jesus Christ and are anti-Christ. I used to like to believe that there were some saved people in all of the religions, but have abandoned that idea. Jesus said, "Few there be that find it" Matthew 7:14. Few there be that find it, because few there be that seek it. Instead of coming to Christ as repentant sinner to be saved by him, they take the broad road that leads to destruction. The broad road does not require one to call on Christ to save them. Nor does the broad road require one to be dependent upon Christ for their salvation, instead they have their religion to comfort them. It is the work of the Holy Spirit to teach us the Gospel and justification by faith without the works of the law, which is religion.
 
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Robert Pate said:
I have found that all religions are hostile to the Gospel of Jesus Christ and are anti-Christ. I used to like to believe that there were some saved people in all of the religions, but have abandoned that idea. Jesus said, "Few there be that find it" Matthew 7:14. Few there be that find it, because few there be that seek it. Instead of coming to Christ as repentant sinner to be saved by him, they take the broad road that leads to destruction. The broad road does not require one to call on Christ to save them. Nor does the broad road require one to be dependent upon Christ for their salvation, instead they have their religion to comfort them. It is the work of the Holy Spirit to teach us the Gospel and justification by faith without the works of the law, which is religion.
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I agree entirely.
 
WonderfulLordJesus

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It’s just my opinion, because, of course, I can’t know, only God able to read hearts, but the evidence is that Calvin was either insane or the most subtle of devils. So much clear scripture debunks his silly claims, with regard to what predestination involves, his God even, as some point out, a ridiculous tyrant, a pervert who demands mankind make the right choices, mankind held responsible for right choices, come let us reason together, a God that desires all come to repentance, yet created beings that regimen and enduring Bible sermon, that primary theme of man making right choices, is useless to? Sermonizes people who are born wholly deaf and blind, who cannot positively respond? God is castigating hopeless sinners for being what they were created to be, those of the unlucky sperm club? That’s completely insane, obviously.

The problem I have with Calvin is that his claims are too stupid and disingenuous, flying in the face of a mountain of clear scripture, flying in the face of very common sense, as well as painting God this evil tyrant, to not question his sincerity, rather more points to Calvin being a deceiver, a very subtle angel of light sort of devil. The devil will throw a lot of truth at you to seem credible, when his sole intent is slipping in some damaging lie, inject some leaven into the lump.

In any event, the main purpose of the post is that Adrian Rogers, on the radio today, did an excellent teaching on predestination those of you interested in the Calvinism subject may like, a message Adrian so cleverly called “The Five Pillars of Salvation”. You can listen to it today at this link:

http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/love-worth-finding/custom-player
 
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Robert Pate

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WonderfulLordJesus said:
It’s just my opinion, because, of course, I can’t know, only God able to read hearts, but the evidence is that Calvin was either insane or the most subtle of devils. So much clear scripture debunks his silly claims, with regard to what predestination involves, his God even, as some point out, a ridiculous tyrant, a pervert who demands mankind make the right choices, mankind held responsible for right choices, come let us reason together, a God that desires all come to repentance, yet created beings that regimen and enduring Bible sermon, that primary theme of man making right choices, is useless to? Sermonizes people who are born wholly deaf and blind, who cannot positively respond? God is castigating hopeless sinners for being what they were created to be, those of the unlucky sperm club? That’s completely insane, obviously.

The problem I have with Calvin is that his claims are too stupid and disingenuous, flying in the face of a mountain of clear scripture, flying in the face of very common sense, as well as painting God this evil tyrant, to not question his sincerity, rather more points to Calvin being a deceiver, a very subtle angel of light sort of devil. The devil will throw a lot of truth at you to seem credible, when his sole intent is slipping in some damaging lie, inject some leaven into the lump.

In any event, the main purpose of the post is that Adrian Rogers, on the radio today, did an excellent teaching on predestination those of you interested in the Calvinism subject may like, a message Adrian so cleverly called “The Five Pillars of Salvation”. You can listen to it today at this link:

http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/love-worth-finding/custom-player
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It appears that he has a good understanding of Calvinism and the Gospel and justification by faith.
 
WonderfulLordJesus

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Robert Pate said:
It appears that he has a good understanding of Calvinism and the Gospel and justification by faith.
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Adrian, who is now with the Lord, always struck me as one of the most gifted, Spirit-filled preachers and teachers of whole gospel that has ever lived. His legacy is an entire, truthful, that is reliable, Christian education, somebody I paid close attention since his ministry became widely known, somebody I grew to much love and respect. Not only faithful, but the man had huge intellect, reasoning skills, understanding of many things.
 
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