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Thread: Discussion thread: One on One: AMR and JCWR on the Temporality of God

  1. #91
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by P8ntrDan View Post
    Bump
    But, doesn't time require the passing of events?
    Time IS the passing of events.
    Should nothing happen from one moment to the next (ABSOLUTELY NOTHING) would time have passed? Can't we just say that before creation, God simply was?
    What makes you think that the godhead did nothing prior to creation?

    Was God in some sort of eternal sleep and suddenly just "popped" into action at creation???

    God is the living God (that's how He describes Himself), therefore there is no reason to assume that God didn't think, act, fellowship, relate, act, or anything else that He chose to do prior to creation.
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    Member of the 10 year club on TOL!! CabinetMaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hippiechyck View Post
    i should probably not continue here, i'm not a very good debater i just know what i believe, and that is God is on the throne and He knows all...past, present and future
    Quote Originally Posted by Knight View Post
    It's OK, we aren't even debating. CabinetMaker is one of my all-time favorite TOL'ers. We are just discussing the issues over a cup of steaming hot coffee. Relax, ask and answer questions and just enjoy yourself!!!
    Yes, come and join us. The coffee is great and I have learned several things from them. We all have things that we have always believed that we have never really questioned. Descussion like this make us look at some of those beliefs and see if they make sense in light of scripture. Come with a mind open to different points of view and a heart open to Christ and you will learn too! (You'll probably have fun while you're at it.)
    Galatians 5:22-23 (New International Version)

    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

    What are my fruits today?

    Cityboy With Horses A blog about what happens when you say, "I Promise"

    "Moral standards" are a lot like lighthouses: they exist to help us stay on course as we sail through life. But we have to steer BY them, but not directly AT them. Lest we end up marooned on the shoals of perpetual self-righteousness.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight View Post
    Time IS the passing of events.What makes you think that the godhead did nothing prior to creation?

    Was God in some sort of eternal sleep and suddenly just "popped" into action at creation???

    God is the living God (that's how He describes Himself), therefore there is no reason to assume that God didn't think, act, fellowship, relate, act, or anything else that He chose to do prior to creation.
    I don't think that God did nothing before creation. It seems that Satan challenged God during this time before creation and was cast down. Satan was in the garden maybe from the moment it was created.

    He probably created angles during this time since Lucifer was created being. Kind of makes me wonder how the angles perceive time...
    Galatians 5:22-23 (New International Version)

    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

    What are my fruits today?

    Cityboy With Horses A blog about what happens when you say, "I Promise"

    "Moral standards" are a lot like lighthouses: they exist to help us stay on course as we sail through life. But we have to steer BY them, but not directly AT them. Lest we end up marooned on the shoals of perpetual self-righteousness.

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    Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle Stripe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Meh, this overview is loaded. I think mine was more unbiased though brought up my biased concerns. This is one is somewhat accurate but with more inaccuracies. It is a strictly OV-biased assessment.
    Yeah, I'm biased.

    Still, I don't think you'd be upset with every line. Afterall .. a few of them are AMR's own words...
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
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    Throw your trolls out the door

    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
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    Journeyman P8ntrDan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight View Post
    Time IS the passing of events.What makes you think that the godhead did nothing prior to creation?

    Was God in some sort of eternal sleep and suddenly just "popped" into action at creation???

    God is the living God (that's how He describes Himself), therefore there is no reason to assume that God didn't think, act, fellowship, relate, act, or anything else that He chose to do prior to creation.
    Time is the passing of events. Therefore, for time to exist, there has to be a first event. If God has always been, there never was a first event. Therefore, there was a time were time where time didn't exist (no pun intended). There was a 'time' where God simply was. Why not consider creation the beginning of time, especial since Genesis says "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth."?

  7. #96
    TOL Subscriber Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    Yeah, I'm biased.

    Still, I don't think you'd be upset with every line. Afterall .. a few of them are AMR's own words...
    Of course not, didn't I say so?

    Blessings
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    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
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    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Of course not, didn't I say so?

    Blessings
    I can't keep track. You did upgrade "mischaracterisations" to "inaccuracies".
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
    When the world is a monster
    Bad to swallow you whole
    Kick the clay that holds the teeth in
    Throw your trolls out the door

    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
    -Bob B.


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  10. #98
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CabinetMaker View Post
    Yes, come and join us. The coffee is great and I have learned several things from them. We all have things that we have always believed that we have never really questioned. Descussion like this make us look at some of those beliefs and see if they make sense in light of scripture. Come with a mind open to different points of view and a heart open to Christ and you will learn too! (You'll probably have fun while you're at it.)
    I will admit that when I go back and read some of my posts (even in this thread) they come off a bit rude and arrogant. That isn't my intention I promise you. I don't think that I write very well. On second thought... I KNOW that I do not write very well. If we were talking in person I would do a much better job simply conversing with you. When it's just words on a screen there are no gestures, no sarcastic laughs, no indications of silliness, or friendly nudges etc. so it can appear that a post is different than it is intended.
    Last edited by Knight; December 25th, 2008 at 01:28 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CabinetMaker View Post
    I don't think that God did nothing before creation. It seems that Satan challenged God during this time before creation and was cast down. Satan was in the garden maybe from the moment it was created.
    I believe that the Bible describes Satan falling after he was placed in the garden. But that's another topic.

    He probably created angles during this time since Lucifer was created being. Kind of makes me wonder how the angles perceive time...
    And of course there was the fellowship within the godhead. So yes, I agree God certainly did things (whatever they might have been) prior to creation. Doesn't that indicate that there was time prior to creation?
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    Quote Originally Posted by P8ntrDan View Post
    Time is the passing of events. Therefore, for time to exist, there has to be a first event. If God has always been, there never was a first event. Therefore, there was a time were time where time didn't exist (no pun intended). There was a 'time' where God simply was.
    That is a lot to ponder. And it is true that God can overcome things that we cannot i.e., time passing eternally into the past.

    Why not consider creation the beginning of time, especial since Genesis says "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth."?
    Because we know that not everything was created at creation (Love, mercy, power, and so on). In fact we know specifically what was created at creation and time wasn't one of those things mentioned.

    Why assume something from the text that is clearly NOT mentioned?

    The creation account is there for anyone to read. If God had created time (which is irrational i.e., how long did it take God to create time? ) I am sure He would have mentioned it in the creation account.
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    Given the topic of the debate, it might be beneficial if both sides define precisely what they mean by "time".
    "When the lights go out all over the world, when history seems headed only into a dead end and total disaster, God brings forth light. He changes the direction of history and regenerates men and redirects events and institutions to fulfill His purposes."

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    Journeyman P8ntrDan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight View Post
    That is a lot to ponder. And it is true that God can overcome things that we cannot i.e., time passing eternally into the past.

    Because we know that not everything was created at creation (Love, mercy, power, and so on). In fact we know specifically what was created at creation and time wasn't one of those things mentioned.

    Why assume something from the text that is clearly NOT mentioned?

    The creation account is there for anyone to read. If God had created time (which is irrational i.e., how long did it take God to create time? ) I am sure He would have mentioned it in the creation account.
    I don't know if it's clearly not mentioned. How do you explain it saying 'In the Beginning...'? It doesn't take God time to create anything, the 7 days was an example for us.
    WWJD... FTW?
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    Quote Originally Posted by P8ntrDan View Post
    I don't know if it's clearly not mentioned. How do you explain it saying 'In the Beginning...'?
    In the beginning of creation. Isn't that how you understand it?

    The beginning was the beginning of us! Our universe, our world, our realm, our planet, etc.

    It wasn't the beginning for God and His existence therefore there is absolutely no reason to assume that time was created "in the beginning". Keep in mind, God does in fact detail what He created during creation and time wasn't one of those things.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight View Post
    In the beginning of creation. Isn't that how you understand it?

    The beginning was the beginning of us! Our universe, our world, our realm, our planet, etc.

    It wasn't the beginning for God and His existence therefore there is absolutely no reason to assume that time was created "in the beginning". Keep in mind, God does in fact detail what He created during creation and time wasn't one of those things.
    Couldn't it also be just as easily understood as the beginning of time? Since time requires a period to pass between one event and the next, could creation be that first marker by which time is measured? By creating the heavens and the earth (an act) doesn't that mean that God 'created/started' time? It wasn't the beginning of God, and he existed before that, but there is no point of reference, making God timeless.
    WWJD... FTW?
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    Quote Originally Posted by P8ntrDan View Post
    Couldn't it also be just as easily understood as the beginning of time? Since time requires a period to pass between one event and the next, could creation be that first marker by which time is measured? By creating the heavens and the earth (an act) doesn't that mean that God 'created/started' time? It wasn't the beginning of God, and he existed before that, but there is no point of reference, making God timeless.
    A necessary effect of that is to believe that nothing happened before creation.
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
    When the world is a monster
    Bad to swallow you whole
    Kick the clay that holds the teeth in
    Throw your trolls out the door

    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
    -Bob B.


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