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Thread: Discussion thread: One on One: AMR and JCWR on the Temporality of God

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    Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle Stripe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    Grant is going to re-write AMR's posts in byte form. Happy Christmas, Knight.

    AMR thinks time came into existence at the beginning of creation because Genesis 1:1 says "In the beginning".

    AMR thinks God must be outside of time in order to be all powerful.

    AMR regards interpretation with just cause as grounds for suspicion and prefers people to be honestly open as to how these texts are accepted by the majority.

    AMR thinks the bible is written so that it can be understood and believes that it conveys the incomprehensible nature of God in the form of comprehansible descriptions.

    AMR thinks that if God existed for an eternity in the past then not enough time would yet have passed in order that creation might have happened.

    AMR thinks that Jesus said I Am because Jesus is continually in every moment of time at all times. Similarly he thinks that Jesus is hanging on the cross for the same reasons.

    AMR thinks that the verses he used cannot have the preposition "before" because that would imply that there was a "before" before creation.

    AMR accuses JCWR of understanding the text of Rev. 13:8 analogously!

    AMR accuses JCWR of ignoring other Scriptures related to Godís timelessness. 2 Peter 3:8 and Psalm 90:4. He thinks the literal meaning of these passages is that time is of no significance to God.

    AMR uses Jude 25; Titus 1:2 and 2 Timothy 1:9 to say that if there was a "before all time" and if we all agree that God is without beginning, then God must have existed prior to time.

    AMR claims that Ecclesiastes 3:14-15 show that in the past the future already existed for God.
    Dang! Byte form is loooooong ..
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
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    Bad to swallow you whole
    Kick the clay that holds the teeth in
    Throw your trolls out the door

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    Quote Originally Posted by CabinetMaker View Post
    But that is time from our perspective which I am not convinced is the same as time from Gods perspective.
    Quote Originally Posted by CabinetMaker View Post
    Hmm. I suppose that it might be that He is. That would makes His sacrifice on the cross an eternal sacrifice that covers all of our sins.
    well said...at least said better than i can
    If a tree falls in a forest, and no one is around to hear it, does that mean that i'm the one who knocked it over?

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    AMR accuses Open Theism of building its theology atop the same Greek philosophies that it condemns.

    AMR defends the philosophical ideas of God’s immutability, impassibility, and timelessness against charges of paganism because the people who lay the charges use different philosophical ideas that the pagans also used.

    AMR claims that theologians using Greek ideas altered those ideas from what they meant before that.

    AMR says there is no disputing that Augustine owed much to Platonic thinking and was converted to Christianity because of it. He thinks people who hold these facts up to scrutiny have not studied enough on the subject.

    AMR shows that Aquinas knew a lot about Aristotle.

    AMR recognises that lots of theologians have opposed classical theology.

    AMR describes Greek ideas of what God might be like, unchanging, compassionless and apathetic.

    AMR requires evidence that the influence of this kind of Greek thought is bad.

    AMR requires that an alternative theology be based on something other than a human interpretation and philosophy.
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
    When the world is a monster
    Bad to swallow you whole
    Kick the clay that holds the teeth in
    Throw your trolls out the door

    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
    -Bob B.


  4. #79
    Your powers are weak, old man. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    Grant is going to re-write AMR's posts in byte form. Happy Christmas, Knight.

    AMR thinks time came into existence at the beginning of creation because Genesis 1:1 says "In the beginning".

    AMR thinks God must be outside of time in order to be all powerful.

    AMR regards interpretation with just cause as grounds for suspicion and prefers people to be honestly open as to how these texts are accepted by the majority.

    AMR thinks the bible is written so that it can be understood and believes that it conveys the incomprehensible nature of God in the form of comprehansible descriptions.

    AMR thinks that if God existed for an eternity in the past then not enough time would yet have passed in order that creation might have happened.

    AMR thinks that Jesus said I Am because Jesus is continually in every moment of time at all times. Similarly he thinks that Jesus is hanging on the cross for the same reasons.

    AMR thinks that the verses he used cannot have the preposition "before" because that would imply that there was a "before" before creation.

    AMR accuses JCWR of understanding the text of Rev. 13:8 analogously!

    AMR accuses JCWR of ignoring other Scriptures related to Godís timelessness. 2 Peter 3:8 and Psalm 90:4. He thinks the literal meaning of these passages is that time is of no significance to God.

    AMR uses Jude 25; Titus 1:2 and 2 Timothy 1:9 to say that if there was a "before all time" and if we all agree that God is without beginning, then God must have existed prior to time.

    AMR claims that Ecclesiastes 3:14-15 show that in the past the future already existed for God.
    POTD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    OV Theists may want to chime in here. Not being OV, is JCWR correct?
    For sake of accuracy JCWR doesn't claim to be an open theist. Just so ya know.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CabinetMaker View Post
    But that is time from our perspective which I am not convinced is the same as time from Gods perspective.
    So.... time is infinite from our perspective but not from God's?

    OK, well... not sure where to go from here.

    All I will say is I think it is irrational to believe that time is something that anyone or anything can be "out of". I think the notion of being "outside of time" is one of those sci-fi, gobbledygook things that have been created over the years via the poor theology of Calvinism and Arminianism. I think the concept turns God into more of a magically fairy than a real, rational, living God that is described in the Bible. And most importantly the concept of God being outside of time flies in the face of His word in which He describes how He interacts with His creation within a sequentially reality for us and for Him.
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    Your powers are weak, old man. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CabinetMaker View Post
    Hmm. I suppose that it might be that He is. That would makes His sacrifice on the cross an eternal sacrifice that covers all of our sins.
    God says... "it is finished" yet you say it isn't finished.

    I rarely throw this word around but that is heresy. God is NOT still on the cross suffering. Jesus is now with the Father in heaven.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight View Post
    So.... time is infinite from our perspective but not from God's?

    OK, well... not sure where to go from here.

    All I will say is I think it is irrational to believe that time is something that anyone or anything can be "out of". I think the notion of being "outside of time" is one of those sci-fi, gobbledygook things that have been created over the years via the poor theology of Calvinism and Arminianism. I think the concept turns God into more of a magically fairy than a real, rational, living God that is described in the Bible. And most importantly the concept of God being outside of time flies in the face of His word in which He describes how He interacts with His creation within a sequentially reality for us and for Him.
    For us, time flows from moment to moment. We cannot go to the past and redo things nor can we skip to the future to see what happens. I do not think that God is bound by that aspect time.
    Galatians 5:22-23 (New International Version)

    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

    What are my fruits today?

    Cityboy With Horses A blog about what happens when you say, "I Promise"

    "Moral standards" are a lot like lighthouses: they exist to help us stay on course as we sail through life. But we have to steer BY them, but not directly AT them. Lest we end up marooned on the shoals of perpetual self-righteousness.

  9. #84
    TOL Subscriber Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight View Post
    For sake of accuracy JCWR doesn't claim to be an open theist. Just so ya know.
    Er, that's what I said :-p

    Oh, POTD understood, but there are mischaracterizations in that post for certain.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight View Post
    God says... "it is finished" yet you say it isn't finished.

    I rarely throw this word around but that is heresy. God is NOT still on the cross suffering. Jesus is now with the Father in heaven.
    It is finished. But if God can back and forth in time, or least see back into time, then God can still see Jesus on the cross even though through the flow of time, He is not.
    Galatians 5:22-23 (New International Version)

    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

    What are my fruits today?

    Cityboy With Horses A blog about what happens when you say, "I Promise"

    "Moral standards" are a lot like lighthouses: they exist to help us stay on course as we sail through life. But we have to steer BY them, but not directly AT them. Lest we end up marooned on the shoals of perpetual self-righteousness.

  11. #86
    TOL Subscriber Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    Grant is going to re-write AMR's posts in byte form. Happy Christmas, Knight.

    AMR thinks time came into existence at the beginning of creation because Genesis 1:1 says "In the beginning".

    AMR thinks God must be outside of time in order to be all powerful.

    AMR regards interpretation with just cause as grounds for suspicion and prefers people to be honestly open as to how these texts are accepted by the majority.

    AMR thinks the bible is written so that it can be understood and believes that it conveys the incomprehensible nature of God in the form of comprehansible descriptions.

    AMR thinks that if God existed for an eternity in the past then not enough time would yet have passed in order that creation might have happened.

    AMR thinks that Jesus said I Am because Jesus is continually in every moment of time at all times. Similarly he thinks that Jesus is hanging on the cross for the same reasons.

    AMR thinks that the verses he used cannot have the preposition "before" because that would imply that there was a "before" before creation.

    AMR accuses JCWR of understanding the text of Rev. 13:8 analogously!

    AMR accuses JCWR of ignoring other Scriptures related to Godís timelessness. 2 Peter 3:8 and Psalm 90:4. He thinks the literal meaning of these passages is that time is of no significance to God.

    AMR uses Jude 25; Titus 1:2 and 2 Timothy 1:9 to say that if there was a "before all time" and if we all agree that God is without beginning, then God must have existed prior to time.

    AMR claims that Ecclesiastes 3:14-15 show that in the past the future already existed for God.
    Meh, this overview is loaded. I think mine was more unbiased though brought up my biased concerns. This is one is somewhat accurate but with more inaccuracies. It is a strictly OV-biased assessment.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by CabinetMaker View Post
    It is finished. But if God can back and forth in time, or least see back into time, then God can still see Jesus on the cross even though through the flow of time, He is not.
    So... sometimes He is in time and other times He is not?
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    Rookie hippiechyck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CabinetMaker View Post
    For us, time flows from moment to moment. We cannot go to the past and redo things nor can we skip to the future to see what happens. I do not think that God is bound by that aspect time.
    yes, this i agree with

    Quote Originally Posted by CabinetMaker View Post
    It is finished. But if God can back and forth in time, or least see back into time, then God can still see Jesus on the cross even though through the flow of time, He is not.
    this i don't completely agree with

    i like the table analogy, that works well for me also...

    i should probably not continue here, i'm not a very good debater i just know what i believe, and that is God is on the throne and He knows all...past, present and future
    If a tree falls in a forest, and no one is around to hear it, does that mean that i'm the one who knocked it over?

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by hippiechyck View Post
    i should probably not continue here, i'm not a very good debater i just know what i believe, and that is God is on the throne and He knows all...past, present and future
    It's OK, we aren't even debating. CabinetMaker is one of my all-time favorite TOL'ers. We are just discussing the issues over a cup of steaming hot coffee. Relax, ask and answer questions and just enjoy yourself!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by P8ntrDan View Post
    time....

    But, doesn't time require the passing of events? Should nothing happen from one moment to the next (ABSOLUTELY NOTHING) would time have passed? Can't we just say that before creation, God simply was?
    Bump

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