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Thread: Discussion thread: One on One: AMR and JCWR on the Temporality of God

  1. #61
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by P8ntrDan View Post
    Which brings me back to my earlier musing, what if creation was the first event for God? Essentially, there wouldn't have been time before that first event correct?
    If that is true God isn't the eternal God from everlasting. Instead He would be a finite God who has only existed a finite amount of time into the past.
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    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CabinetMaker View Post
    I think time is something God created for us.
    Why do you think that? Just curious.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight View Post
    Why do you think that? Just curious.
    I think that it helps us figure out God's Gospel. We learn that things we do in the past, like mess around during high school, effects our future, like I didn't have the grades to get into med school. If we can connect that the choices we make now effects what we can do tomorrow, then it better helps us understand that what we choose to do with the Gospel will effect our eternity.

    But I was thinking about something you said last night, about time being a part of God. I remembered we had a speaker in our church that was talking about the extra-dimensionality of God. How ever many dimensions we exist in, God exists in at least one more dimension. We exist in at least 4 dimensions, X, Y, X and t where t is time. That would mean that God exists in at least those dimensions so God exists in time. Since He is in more dimensions than we are, He is not limited by time in the same way that we are, though. But it seems entirely reasonable that time could be part of God's nature in the same way that space is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CabinetMaker View Post
    No, love is not a created thing. We were created in God's image thus we have the ability to love.
    God is Love. However we will recognized God only through His urgings, that is the urgings of love. We cannot know Him otherwise, only those who have loved know God.

    And indeed those who have not love do not know God. Therefore from this revelation there are people who have not loved and therefore there are people who do not know God.

    And indeed the urgings of love which arises and is sustained naturally and spontaneously within one's heart for those specific people, things and circumstances in God's creation, is the will of God for that person. One must simply let these urgings of love guide one into associations and relationships. Then God's will is done in His creation and one is under Grace of God.

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    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CabinetMaker View Post
    I think that it helps us figure out God's Gospel. We learn that things we do in the past, like mess around during high school, effects our future, like I didn't have the grades to get into med school. If we can connect that the choices we make now effects what we can do tomorrow, then it better helps us understand that what we choose to do with the Gospel will effect our eternity.

    But I was thinking about something you said last night, about time being a part of God. I remembered we had a speaker in our church that was talking about the extra-dimensionality of God. How ever many dimensions we exist in, God exists in at least one more dimension. We exist in at least 4 dimensions, X, Y, X and t where t is time. That would mean that God exists in at least those dimensions so God exists in time. Since He is in more dimensions than we are, He is not limited by time in the same way that we are, though. But it seems entirely reasonable that time could be part of God's nature in the same way that space is.
    Do you believe God (from His perspective) is still hanging on the cross? Or is that part of God's past?
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    Quote Originally Posted by CabinetMaker View Post
    I think that it helps us figure out God's Gospel. We learn that things we do in the past, like mess around during high school, effects our future, like I didn't have the grades to get into med school. If we can connect that the choices we make now effects what we can do tomorrow, then it better helps us understand that what we choose to do with the Gospel will effect our eternity.

    But I was thinking about something you said last night, about time being a part of God. I remembered we had a speaker in our church that was talking about the extra-dimensionality of God. How ever many dimensions we exist in, God exists in at least one more dimension. We exist in at least 4 dimensions, X, Y, X and t where t is time. That would mean that God exists in at least those dimensions so God exists in time. Since He is in more dimensions than we are, He is not limited by time in the same way that we are, though. But it seems entirely reasonable that time could be part of God's nature in the same way that space is.
    i agree with this

    Quote Originally Posted by Knight View Post
    Do you believe God (from His perspective) is still hanging on the cross? Or is that part of God's past?
    why is it that if i say "God transcends time" that is the question that comes up? is God not God? He certainly is not confined to the meager "time needs" that we have...He doesn't age, does He? He is the SAME yesterday, today and forever...

    of course He is not still on the Cross, why does that mean He is outside of time? He said "it is finished" and that means it's done

    maybe i'm simple minded, but i do NOT understand how one thing (time) has anything to do with God's God-ness
    If a tree falls in a forest, and no one is around to hear it, does that mean that i'm the one who knocked it over?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight View Post
    If that is true God isn't the eternal God from everlasting. Instead He would be a finite God who has only existed a finite amount of time into the past.
    So if time is described as the passing of events in sequential order, what was God's first event?
    WWJD... FTW?
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  8. #68
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hippiechyck View Post
    why is it that if i say "God transcends time" that is the question that comes up? is God not God? He certainly is not confined to the meager "time needs" that we have...
    What are "time needs"?

    Time is nothing more than reality happening sequentially. One event follows another event and so on.

    He doesn't age, does He? He is the SAME yesterday, today and forever...
    God's character is the same yesterday, today, and forever but God Himself changes all the time. After all... He is the living God. God is living and therefore by definition He changes otherwise He would be "dead".

    of course He is not still on the Cross, why does that mean He is outside of time? He said "it is finished" and that means it's done
    I don't think God is outside of time. CabinetMaker thinks God is outside of time and you seem to agree with him. So I am not sure I understand your question.

    maybe i'm simple minded, but i do NOT understand how one thing (time) has anything to do with God's God-ness
    Do you believe God experiences one event after another event and so on? Or do you believe that God is in some sort of eternal "now" where all events for all of time are happening at once?
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    Quote Originally Posted by P8ntrDan View Post
    So if time is described as the passing of events in sequential order, what was God's first event?
    He didn't have a first event. God is the uncaused cause. He is the creator God that has existed for all time.

    Maybe you can take a stab at this....

    Fill in the blanks time....
    God has existed an eternity past. Which means He has existed an infinite amount of _______ into the past.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight View Post
    He didn't have a first event. God is the uncaused cause. He is the creator God that has existed for all time.

    Maybe you can take a stab at this....

    Fill in the blanks time....
    God has existed an eternity past. Which means He has existed an infinite amount of _______ into the past.
    time....

    But, doesn't time require the passing of events? Should nothing happen from one moment to the next (ABSOLUTELY NOTHING) would time have passed? Can't we just say that before creation, God simply was?
    WWJD... FTW?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight View Post
    He didn't have a first event. God is the uncaused cause. He is the creator God that has existed for all time.

    Maybe you can take a stab at this....

    Fill in the blanks time....
    God has existed an eternity past. Which means He has existed an infinite amount of time into the past.
    But that is time from our perspective which I am not convinced is the same as time from Gods perspective.
    Galatians 5:22-23 (New International Version)

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    What are my fruits today?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight View Post
    Do you believe God (from His perspective) is still hanging on the cross? Or is that part of God's past?
    Hmm. I suppose that it might be that He is. That would makes His sacrifice on the cross an eternal sacrifice that covers all of our sins.
    Galatians 5:22-23 (New International Version)

    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

    What are my fruits today?

    Cityboy With Horses A blog about what happens when you say, "I Promise"

    "Moral standards" are a lot like lighthouses: they exist to help us stay on course as we sail through life. But we have to steer BY them, but not directly AT them. Lest we end up marooned on the shoals of perpetual self-righteousness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight View Post
    Do you believe God (from His perspective) is still hanging on the cross? Or is that part of God's past?
    Relational to, not subject to. His incarnation is a conundrum all in itself on logical points. We agree on that. It has us very perplexed on many logical levels. God is amazing.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

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    Summary

    Let's see,

    as I read the debate, there is a bit of doldrum and confusion so I'll attempt to hit some points discussed and those desperately needing to be punched.

    JCWR Starts with the premise of proving temporality in God by introducing the A and B theories of time and elaborating on the A theory.

    We have a promise we are looking forward to in seeing
    'much support' for the A theory and will look forward to a healthy portion served up in ensuing posts.

    Not much time was spent on the B-theory and it isn't good to start debates going without really laying out a solid premise of both what is being supported and what is being rejected. We are not starting off with a good run nor possibly even a good cantor.

    AMR's address helps delineate what kind of A-theorist one can be and we find JCWR is sempiternalitist, which is in keeping with most OVer's position. That time is uncreated and God experiences it along with us.

    AMR lifts an incredible challenge in that if any attribute of God in Traditional theology is proved wrong, then God as we know Him is erased. The challenge is alternately gauntletted before OV on the same premise. This then, would be a battle royale to end all battle royales.

    The concession:
    Quote Originally Posted by JCWR View Post
    Yes, I believe that if you can make your case without appeal to these attributes, then you have made the case that open theism has incorrectly formulated its views of God.
    OV Theists may want to chime in here. Not being OV, is JCWR correct?

    Next, we wait for the supported material suggesting that the majority support an A-theory of time and have an interlude of scriptural considerations from JCWR that support the claim that God is temporal but at this point the assertions are not substantiated.

    We then, have AMR, seeing the assertions for what they are, getting ready to topple the house of cards which is where we presently are at in the debate.

    I'd have expected a bit more of an academic treatise from JCWR than mere assertions to begin with and am doubtful this clash will be substantive for the necessary considerations.
    My present assessment
    What is needed is:

    1) a bit of history on the issue from science and philosophy
    2) a bit of the historical dynamics that speak from both camps
    3) a strongly supported/stated position with challenge for refutation
    4) quotes quotes and more quotes from those on either position
    5) scripture that helps us interpret correctly whether we view God as temporal or atemporal with commentary, language considerations, anthropomorphisms etc.

    I hope this debate reaches its potential
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

  15. #75
    Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle Stripe's Avatar
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    Grant is going to re-write AMR's posts in byte form. Happy Christmas, Knight.

    AMR thinks time came into existence at the beginning of creation because Genesis 1:1 says "In the beginning".

    AMR thinks God must be outside of time in order to be all powerful.

    AMR regards interpretation with just cause as grounds for suspicion and prefers people to be honestly open as to how these texts are accepted by the majority.

    AMR thinks the bible is written so that it can be understood and believes that it conveys the incomprehensible nature of God in the form of comprehansible descriptions.

    AMR thinks that if God existed for an eternity in the past then not enough time would yet have passed in order that creation might have happened.

    AMR thinks that Jesus said I Am because Jesus is continually in every moment of time at all times. Similarly he thinks that Jesus is hanging on the cross for the same reasons.

    AMR thinks that the verses he used cannot have the preposition "before" because that would imply that there was a "before" before creation.

    AMR accuses JCWR of understanding the text of Rev. 13:8 analogously!

    AMR accuses JCWR of ignoring other Scriptures related to God’s timelessness. 2 Peter 3:8 and Psalm 90:4. He thinks the literal meaning of these passages is that time is of no significance to God.

    AMR uses Jude 25; Titus 1:2 and 2 Timothy 1:9 to say that if there was a "before all time" and if we all agree that God is without beginning, then God must have existed prior to time.

    AMR claims that Ecclesiastes 3:14-15 show that in the past the future already existed for God.
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
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    Bad to swallow you whole
    Kick the clay that holds the teeth in
    Throw your trolls out the door

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