It is quoted verbatim in Hebrews 8 and I do understand it. It is you who denies the reality by selective quote mining and cherry picking to concoct your own private understanding.
ECT Yet Future?
- Thread starter Danoh
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It is quoted verbatim in Hebrews 8 and I do understand it. It is you who denies the reality by selective quote mining and cherry picking to concoct your own private understanding.
Right Divider
Body part
You need to be discerning because he says BOTH. Here Paul says BOTH that they have fallen and yet God forbid that they should fall.
Rom 11:11-12 (AKJV/PCE)
(11:11) I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. (11:12) Now if the fall of them [be] the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
He also says that they are cast away and not cast away.
Rom 11:15 (AKJV/PCE)
(11:15) For if the casting away of them [be] the reconciling of the world, what [shall] the receiving [of them be], but life from the dead?
To understand why Paul could say BOTH, it is because it is temporary.
Gentiles were always allowed to join with Israel. That is nothing new.
Note that this scripture does NOT say that we need to be a part of Israel. God's household includes BOTH Israel and the body of Christ. Earthly and heavenly.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I am cherry picking nothing. I am going to the prophecy where the New Covenant is first mentioned. Of course all you do is to run and hide from what is revealed there:
"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).
Here we can see that the "fathers" of those who will make up the house of Israel and the house of Judah are the physical descendants of Israel because it was them who broke the covenant. And since the fathers are the physical descendants of Israel then that means that those who will make up both houses will also be the physical descendants of Israel.
And all of those physical descendants, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, will know the LORD and they will have their sins forgiven.
And the reason you do not understand it is because you yourself have ripped it from its context.
Jeremiah 31:26-31 KJV
26 Upon this I awaked, and beheld; and my sleep was sweet unto me.
27 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast.
28 And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the LORD.
29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
This tells me that you do not even understand true supernal circumcision of the heart according to the scripture: but how could you when you do not actually believe the Testimony of the Messiah whom you claim to know and follow? Seed of anthropon-manfaced, Jerry, (Matthew 10:17a, Luke 12:16-20, Jude 1:4 ASV), and seed of beast, (Jude 1:10-16), and those are the proverbial "beasts of man", a lion or lioness, (LXX), a she-bear robbed of her cubs, a leopard or a leopardess, and a wild beast of your own that is going to be used to cleave open your chestplate of iron, (Hos 13:7-9, Dan 7:1-8, Rev 13:1-2), so that your heart may be removed for circumcision, (and Messiah has become the Minister of the Circumcision, Rom 15:8 ASV). As for now you are the blind leading the blind.
:rotfl:
And while I was writing my previous post, you went and did exactly what I was about to post, and proved my point before I even made it. :chuckle:
Paul makes some subtle statements in Romans 11, which can be misinterpreted.
Romans 11: 26 is one of them. Who is "all Israel?" Unless Paul is shown to have defined Israel as being only Old Covenant Israel, like dispensationalism,you must be very careful in deciding who is All Israel, and look to his statements on this topic in other chapters of Romans..
Romans 11: 28 is another, "As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes." If "they" are nothing but Old Covenant Israel, how can "they" be enemies concerning the Gospel, but also beloved for the sakes of the Fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jocob, concerning the election?
Then there is Romans 11: 15, "For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?"
Is he saying that the Jews of Old Covenant Israel, that multitude who are said to be cut off because of unbelief, are all brought back in and saved? Or is he saying something different?
Is he saying that because the rejection of the unbelieving Jews of the Old Covenant resulted in the bringing of believing Gentiles to life in Christ, that should those Jews, or some of them, come to accept Christ, that would be the bringing of those Jews to life from death and would be to the spiritual benefit of the believing Gentiles? What does Paul mean here by the receiving of them, the Jews who had rejected Christ? Does not he say that the receiving of them be but life from the dead? Paul is subtle and you have to be very careful not to impose your theology upon that subtle nature of his utterances.
Romans 11: 26 is one of them. Who is "all Israel?" Unless Paul is shown to have defined Israel as being only Old Covenant Israel, like dispensationalism,you must be very careful in deciding who is All Israel, and look to his statements on this topic in other chapters of Romans..
Romans 11: 28 is another, "As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes." If "they" are nothing but Old Covenant Israel, how can "they" be enemies concerning the Gospel, but also beloved for the sakes of the Fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jocob, concerning the election?
Then there is Romans 11: 15, "For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?"
Is he saying that the Jews of Old Covenant Israel, that multitude who are said to be cut off because of unbelief, are all brought back in and saved? Or is he saying something different?
Is he saying that because the rejection of the unbelieving Jews of the Old Covenant resulted in the bringing of believing Gentiles to life in Christ, that should those Jews, or some of them, come to accept Christ, that would be the bringing of those Jews to life from death and would be to the spiritual benefit of the believing Gentiles? What does Paul mean here by the receiving of them, the Jews who had rejected Christ? Does not he say that the receiving of them be but life from the dead? Paul is subtle and you have to be very careful not to impose your theology upon that subtle nature of his utterances.
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It is yet another body-temple analogy, another "mystery" set in types and shadows. The one new man is both sticks combined: Yhudah is of the holy adamah-soil of the heart, (Zec 2:12-13), while Israel is in the outer eretz-lands of the nations, (the outer bounds or badlands, that is, the flesh, which is the commons-profane area roundabout the outer perimeter of the temple, the eretzot-lands in the allegory). If you understand that the people are the land, (both the adamah-soil of the heart and the eretz-land), then you may begin to truly understand the allegory; for you are the holy temple with its lands, both the holy adamah-soil of the heart and commons or profane which represents the flesh. But sin dwells in the flesh, (Rom 7:18), and therefore we are admonished to mortify or put to death the deeds of the body and our members which are upon the "land", (our own land, which would be eretz if it were written in Hebrew). Therefore those "dwellers" in the outer bounds of the flesh are enemies for the sake of the Gospel, but beloved for the sake of the fathers; and those are the dispersed tribes of Israel, (the house of Israel, the ten northern tribes). The flesh is deceived, partially blind or partially hardened; divide your "land" into "twelve thrones" and rule it with a rod of iron, (by way of the Testimony of Messiah and supernal-spiritual Torah as understood through the lenses of his Testimony, Rom 7:14, 25). Messiah is the power and the wisdom of Elohim; for the foolishness of Elohim is wiser than men, and the weakness of Elohim is stronger and mightier than men. Elohim has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; Elohim has chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty, and base things of the world, and things which are despised, Elohim has chosen: yea, even things which are not, so as to bring to nothing things that are: THAT NO FLESH SHOULD GLORY IN HIS PRESENCE, (Zec 2:12-13).
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The context changes nothing. You just refuse to believe that it will be the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who will make up the house of Israel and the house of Judah when Jeremiah 31:31-34 will be fulfilled.
Just an easy question for you. Do you deny that the "fathers" of those who will make up the two houses are the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?
All you do is quote verses which precede the prophecy and then you act like they really answered what is said at Jeremiah 31:31-34.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Let us do that very thing. In the end of the tenth chapter of Romans and the beginning of the eleventh chapter Paul states:
"But to Israel He saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people. I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid" (Ro.10:21; 11:1).
In this passage when Paul speaks of Israel it is obvious that it is Israel which is made up of the physical descendants of Jacob which is in view: "All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people."
Paul is quoting from the OT so his reference to "Israel" at Romans 10:21 must be the Israel which had its beginning in the OT. Here is the verse which he quoted:
"I have stretched forth my hands all day to a disobedient and gainsaying people, to them that walked in a way that was not good, but after their sins. This is the people that provokes me continually in my presence; they offer sacrifices in gardens, and burn incense on bricks to devils, which exist not" (Isa.65:2-3; LXX).
At Romans 11:1 the Greek word oun is translated "then" and that word is a conjuction which serves to "subjoin questions suggested by what has just been said" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).
So when Paul asks, "Hath God cast away His people" the words "His people" are referring back to the people of whom he just wrote about, the Israel he describes as being "a disobedient and gainsaying people."
So when Paul asked, "Hath God cast away His people" he was asking if the nation of Israel that had its beginning in the OT had been cast away.
And what he says next makes it plain that God has not cast away the Israel of the OT:
"God forbid."
Despite this truth there are still some who continue to argue that the Israel of the OT has been forever cast away that the LORD has no plan for that nation in the future.
And properly understanding it is greatly impacted both by what principles of grammar one applies, as well as by which ones...one fails to.
Words and phrases get their meaning from the various rules of grammar for communicating intended meaning through said rules.
On the receiving end, it then becomes a matter of applying said rules of grammar toward arriving at another's intended sense or meaning.
Thus, if one finds oneself unable to arrive at the meaning intended by another's words, this is due to a poor grasp of some of the rules of grammar beyond those that have become so automatic "by reason of use" that one is no longer aware one is applying them.
Meaning, whenever we find yourselves stuck as to being able to get at what any writer is talking about (including posters on a forum), it is often a matter of slowing down and asking oneself 'what rules of grammar for arriving at the intended sense of this writer's words here, might I possibly be ignoring, that I might do well to consider?'
Over time, those also become automatic - "by reason of use."
At the same time, one then begins to find that one's assertions about the meaning of one word, phrase, passage, or another is not understood by others - for their failure to apply said rules of grammar (of which there are...many).
Get yourself a good basic rules of grammar book, and you'll begin to see for yourself, what I mean by all my above "babble" :chuckle:
It is YOU who are doing all the ignoring:
No doubt this will draw some gnashing of teeth.
Genesis 15:1-4
1 After these things came Yah, the Word of YHWH, unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am your shield, and your exceedingly great reward.
2 And Abram said, Adoni Yah, and what is it you shall give me seeing I walk destitute, and the meshek-inheritor of my house is the dam-meshek-blood-inheritor Eliezer?
3 And Abram said, Behold, unto me you have not given a seed; and lo, the son-born in my house is disinheriting me.
4 And behold, the Word of YHWH unto him said, This shall not be your heir; but whom shall come forth out of your own me`eh-heart (seat of generation) shall be your heir.
For the same reason the Qumranites called their community "Damascus", (Qumran), because it means "blood-inheritor", and their community was founded and administered by Zadokite priests and Levites, (who vehemently disagreed with their own carnal minded Jerusalem brethren the "Sadducees", (Zadokites)).
The holy seed line has always been of the Spirit.
The seed of Abraham is Messiah.
Interplanner
Well-known member
No, because he always meant that the remnant was at least part of that people; that is how some of them are included and included by faith with Gentiles. He said in 9:26 that "us" as Israel was Jews and Gentiels. We have to go with that.
The 'in this manner' of 11:26 is to indicate how 'all' are justified: with some of the race still hard/blind. Like it always has been. The whole piece of Rom 9-11 and 3's intro questions is about whether the whole race at a time is in or out. He means to say that it has NEVER been totally in because it must always be by faith. The remnant had faith but the rest did not. It is a total mistake to think he was always pleased or ever pleased with the whole. Heb 11 always distinguishes those who had faith from those who did not, and NONE of those who had faith recieved what was promised in their lives! All of them were waiting for the real high priest with the once for all time sacrifice, which had now come.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
These words of Paul are referring to the Israel which had its beginning in the OT:
"But to Israel He saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people. I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid" (Ro.10:21; 11:1).
When Paul asked if God had cast away His people Israel he was referring to the Israel of the OT.
And by Paul's own answer it is obvious that that nation has not been cast away. We can see the same truth here:
"(For the LORD thy God is a merciful God) He will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which He sware unto them" (Deut. 4:31).
And here:
"For the LORD will not forsake His people for His great name's sake: because it hath pleased the LORD to make you His people" (1 Sam.12:22).
[MENTION=14377]northwye[/MENTION]It is yet another body-temple analogy, another "mystery" set in types and shadows. The one new man is both sticks combined: Yhudah is of the holy adamah-soil of the heart, (Zec 2:12-13), while Israel is in the outer eretz-lands of the nations, (the outer bounds or badlands, that is, the flesh, which is the commons-profane area roundabout the outer perimeter of the temple, the eretzot-lands in the allegory). If you understand that the people are the land, (both the adamah-soil of the heart and the eretz-land), then you may begin to truly understand the allegory; for you are the holy temple with its lands, both the holy adamah-soil of the heart and commons or profane which represents the flesh. But sin dwells in the flesh, (Rom 7:18), and therefore we are admonished to mortify or put to death the deeds of the body and our members which are upon the "land", (our own land, which would be eretz if it were written in Hebrew). Therefore those "dwellers" in the outer bounds of the flesh are enemies for the sake of the Gospel, but beloved for the sake of the fathers; and those are the dispersed tribes of Israel, (the house of Israel, the ten northern tribes). The flesh is deceived, partially blind or partially hardened; divide your "land" into "twelve thrones" and rule it with a rod of iron, (by way of the Testimony of Messiah and supernal-spiritual Torah as understood through the lenses of his Testimony, Rom 7:14, 25). Messiah is the power and the wisdom of Elohim; for the foolishness of Elohim is wiser than men, and the weakness of Elohim is stronger and mightier than men. Elohim has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; Elohim has chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty, and base things of the world, and things which are despised, Elohim has chosen: yea, even things which are not, so as to bring to nothing things that are: THAT NO FLESH SHOULD GLORY IN HIS PRESENCE, (Zec 2:12-13).
Then take what is said from Zec 2:12, where adamah is used, ("the holy adamah" which is the adamah-soil of the heart when it has been tilled, and turned, and purged of stones, rocks, and weeds, as in the Parable of the Sower), and compare that with what Paul states in Rom 2:28-29.
Interplanner
Well-known member
Stop the OT. You don't know what you are doing.
The answer about the remnant is found in Rom 11's intro paragraph. The remnant answers the question. It always has because there is nothing magical about Israel, as a race. But they adopted a way of thinking that made them feel magical. Huge mistake.
If you are concerned about God's great name's sake, forget Israel as a race. It is all taken care of in Christ and his mission.
You can't keep groveling over fav OT passages and refuse to accept the conditional nature of the NT about these things, where everything is decided on faith or not. Rom 11:30. He's had the promised mercy on all men, which should be accepted by faith. You'll see that same mercy shows again in Rom 15's list of 4 quotes where the Gentiles share in the joy of what Christ fufilled FOR ISRAEL (meaning it will never happen in Israel as such, as a race/nation).
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I quoted what Paul wrote. And then I used a passage from the OT to demonstrate that which I said about his words is true. here is what Paul wrote:
"But to Israel He saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people. I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid" (Ro.10:21; 11:1).
In this passage when Paul speaks of Israel it is obvious that it is Israel which is made up of the physical descendants of Jacob which is in view: "All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people."
Paul is quoting from the OT so his reference to "Israel" at Romans 10:21 must be the Israel which had its beginning in the OT. Here is the verse which he quoted:
"I have stretched forth my hands all day to a disobedient and gainsaying people, to them that walked in a way that was not good, but after their sins. This is the people that provokes me continually in my presence; they offer sacrifices in gardens, and burn incense on bricks to devils, which exist not" (Isa.65:2-3; LXX).
So when Paul asks, "Hath God cast away His people" the words "His people" are referring back to the people of whom he just wrote about, the Israel he describes as being "a disobedient and gainsaying people."
So when Paul asked, "Hath God cast away His people" he was asking if the nation of Israel that had its beginning in the OT had been cast away.
And what he says next makes it plain that God has not cast away the Israel of the OT:
"God forbid."
According to you the LORD did cast away the Israel which began in OT times. You need to grow up and accept what is written in the OT.
Interplanner
Well-known member
That would be the opposite of growing up.
The resolution is in the fact that the remnant does believe. That's all that matters. You don't understand what 'in this manner' is doing in Rom 11:26. It is showing there ALWAYS has been the same qualification. It never was about the whole race. The nation will be partly hard but the Israel of God, or true Israel, which includes Gentiles, will still be saved.
This confusion of nation and remnant is why Paul had to write Gal 3:17 saying that the Promise (to all nations, see context) was replaced by the Law with Israel only. Why would he have to complain about replacement and voiding of the worldwide promise? Because Israel (I think he means inter-testament Israel) got the notion that it was all about them.
Which is what you are doing.
God does not resolve your burning question with the whole race. And when Paul says he himself is a believer, that is all there needs to be to resolve the question of the remnant or of whether God is still doing at least something with Israel, because he is Jewish.
The goal for Israel at that time was to be the leadership in the mission of the Gospel. I think about 220 people were ready to go by the day of Pentecost. It was to kickstart the outreach, although other things had already happened (like in Samaria in Jn 4). This is why ACts 13 says Israel was to be a light to in the world INSIDE the light of Christ to the world, not as a separate op. And why Acts 26 Paul does not seek any other 'fulfillment' to the kingdom of Israel than what is already going on.
That is the track Christ also shifted when he told them not to ask about the kingdom in Acts 1 but gave them its power shortly. He didn't want their minds thinking about it, he wanted them at work in the mission.
turbosixx
New member
You said those on Pentecost had their sins forgiven by the "new" testament. So it wasn't by the old covenant they received when they came out of Egypt, it was something new.
Jer. 31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt,
The old was on stone but the new will be on hearts.
Jer. 31:33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts.
2 Cor. 3:3 And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
Under the old, one was born into God's people and had to be taught but in Christ you have to know God to become a Christian.
Jer. 31:34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord.
One has to believe under the new testament.
Rom. 10:4 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?
Here's the biggie, I will remember their sins no more. Under the old, sins were remembered each year but under the new testament they are forgiven.
Jer. 31:34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."
In Christ, sins are forgiven to be remembered no more.
Acts 10:3 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."
So everything in that passage has been fulfilled in Christ. So if I understand you correctly, you reject this as the new covenant because it isn't for "Israel".
Just as the old was given by Moses the new would be from Christ and first delivered to Israel.
Acts 3:22 Moses said, 'The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people.' 24 And all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and those who came after him, also proclaimed these days. 25 You are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant that God made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, 'And in your offspring shall all the families of the earth be blessed.' 26 God, having raised up his servant, sent him to you first , to bless you by turning every one of you from your wickedness."
It is not the children of the flesh.
Rom. 9:7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named." 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.
Christians are the true descendants because they are the children of promise, Gal. 4:28.
Paul even describes Christians as Jews.
Phil. 3:3 For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh—
Col. 2:11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ,
Gal. 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
How could you possibly be so ignorant?
Can you really not understand the the LORD's words here are about a whole race?:
"For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth" (Deut.7:6).
Can you not even understand that the following passage is speaking about a whole race?:
"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah...And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).
You have so much nonsense crammed into your head that you have no room left for the truth to enter.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
That prophecy has not yet been fulfilled. The words "their fathers" refers to the fathers of those who will make up the house of Israel and the house of Judah. And the "fathers" are the ones who broke the covenant and they were the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. So those who will make up the house of Israel and Judah will also be the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
And all of them, from the least of them to the greatest of them, will know the LORD and have their sins forgiven and be saved (Jer.31:34). Since that has never happened in the past then we know that it will happen in the future.