ECT The Most Misunderstood Passage in the Bible--Romans 5:12-18

Jerry Shugart said:

Shasta, earlier I said:

These words of the Lord Jesus makes it plain that believers received spiritual life before the Cross:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

Those who heard and believed His words received eternal life the moment when they believed. And they were made alive by the Spirit. The promise was realized at the time when a person believed His words. The Greek words translated "speak" and "they are" and "they are" are all in the "present" tense. The believers received spiritual life at the moment when they believed. And that completely destroys your idea that no one received spiritual life until after the Cross.​

To this you said:



Why do you just ignore what I said about the tense of the Greek words translated "speak" and "they are"? Those words are not speaking of something which will not happen until the future but instead was happening right then and there. You also say:



For some reason you are unable to distinguish between the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit's ability to give life. Again, by the Lord Jesus' own words we can see that those who believed the Lord Jesus were made alive or quickened by the Spirit:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

But you say that none was given spiritual life when the Lord Jesus walked on the earth. again, we can see that those who believed Him prior to the Cross were passed from death to life:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).

Of course those who believed were passed from spiritual death to spiritual life--"the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

I also said:

We can also see that men were being born of God prior to the Cross:

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the children of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (Jn.1:12-13).​

Are you willing to argue that being born of the Spirit is not the same thing as being born of God?​

Here is your non-answer:



Instead of answering my question you attempt to undermine my teaching by making the false statement that I "do not put much stock in the death burial and resurrection of Christ."

Now please answer me. Are you willing to argue that being born of the Spirit is not the same thing as being born of God? Do you think that a person can be born of God and remain spiritually dead?

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Jerry,

Jesus taught the new covenant before it was put in place for others, because the presence of the Father is the new covenant.

You are suggesting that born again believers crucified Christ.

It is the believers here who are not born again who are still crucifying Christ today.

Luk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
Luk 23:35 And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.
Luk 23:36 And the soldiers also mocked him, coming to him, and offering him vinegar,
Luk 23:37 And saying, If thou be the king of the Jews, save thyself.

LA

Lazy afternoon said:

You are suggesting that born again believers crucified Christ.

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What are you talking about? You do know that you make no sense at all, don't you?

Jerry Shugart said:

What are you talking about? You do know that you make no sense at all, don't you?

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jerry,

You claim all who heard the words of Christ and believed, were all born again before the Holy Spirit was poured out at Pentecost.

Therefore you say that those who denied Christ including Peter, were born again believers who denied Christ.

You can not deny this without fibbing about the facts.

Your theology is false.

LA

Lazy afternoon said:

You claim all who heard the words of Christ and believed, were all born again before the Holy Spirit was poured out at Pentecost.

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So you deny that anyone was made alive by the Spirit prior to the Cross despite the following words of the Lord Jesus:

All of the verbs in that verse are in the "present" tense so people were being made alive by the Spirit before the Cross. Besides that, we see that the Lord Jesus said that those who believe are passed from death to life:

According to the Lord Jesus His words were bringing spiritual life to all who believed and when they believed they pass from a state of being dead spiritually unto a state of being alive spiritually.

And those things were taking place before the Cross.

Lazy afternoon said:

You claim all who heard the words of Christ and believed, were all born again before the Holy Spirit was poured out at Pentecost.

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So you deny that anyone was made alive by the Spirit prior to the Cross despite the following words of the Lord Jesus:

All of the verbs in that verse are in the "present" tense so people were being made alive by the Spirit before the Cross. Besides that, we see that the Lord Jesus said that those who believe are passed from death to life:

Lazy afternoon said:

Therefore you say that those who denied Christ including Peter, were born again believers who denied Christ.

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I never said that Peter denied Christ nor did I ever say that anyone who denied Christ was born again.

I always said that it was those believed who were born of the Spirit.

You have really reached a low point because you are willing to misrepresent others so that you can win an argument.

Jerry Shugart said:

So you deny that anyone was made alive by the Spirit prior to the Cross despite the following words of the Lord Jesus:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

All of the verbs in that verse are in the "present" tense so people were being made alive by the Spirit before the Cross. Besides that, we see that the Lord Jesus said that those who believe are passed from death to life:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

According to the Lord Jesus His words were bringing spiritual life to all who believed and when they believed they pass from a state of being dead spiritually unto a state of being alive spiritually.

And those things were taking place before the Cross.

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No.

Joh 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Joh 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Lazy afternoon said:

No.

Joh 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Joh 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

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Let us look at this translation:

This passage is speaking about what will flow out of a believer, living water. And this verse speaks about what happened after the Cross when holy spirit was given:


It was the word of God which flowed out of those who believed and that is why His word is described as "living water." And what Peter says in the following passage refers to the prophecy of which the Lord Jesus made reference:

There is nothing in any of these verses which indicates that no one was made alive by the spirit when they believed. Let us look at what the Lord Jesus said to a woman here:

Are you willing to argue that even though this woman was saved and had her sins forgiven she remained dead spiritually in her sins?

Jerry, are you saying men could drink of His Spirit before it was made available by the cross of Christ?


Joh 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

Lazy afternoon said:

Jerry, are you saying men could drink of His Spirit before it was made available by the cross of Christ?

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I have been saying that believers were being made alive spiritually before and after the Cross, as witnessed by the words of the Lord Jesus here:

Do you not believe that people passed from spiritual death to spiritual life before the Cross? Please consider what the Lord Jesus said here:

Jerry Shugart said:

I have been saying that believers were being made alive spiritually before and after the Cross, as witnessed by the words of the Lord Jesus here:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

Do you not believe that people passed from spiritual death to spiritual life before the Cross? Please consider what the Lord Jesus said here:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

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I can hardly believe what a hard time you have with the plain simple truth of what the scriptures say.

God's Truth said:

I can hardly believe what a hard time you have with the plain simple truth of what the scriptures say.

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Have you ever wondered why everyone has a hard time but you? :juggle:

Jerry Shugart said:

I have been saying that believers were being made alive spiritually before and after the Cross, as witnessed by the words of the Lord Jesus here:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

Do you not believe that people passed from spiritual death to spiritual life before the Cross? Please consider what the Lord Jesus said here:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

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None could have eternal life dwelling in them until after the cross.

LA

Lazy afternoon said:

None could have eternal life dwelling in them until after the cross.

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So the Lord Jesus was in error when He said this?:

In this verse the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.

In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:

Therefore, John 5:24 is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received eternal life. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occurring in actual time."

Do you not believe that those who believed prior to the Cross possessed eternal life?

God's Truth said:

I can hardly believe what a hard time you have with the plain simple truth of what the scriptures say.

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Do you not think that believers possessed eternal life prior to the Cross?

Jerry Shugart said:

Do you not think that believers possessed eternal life prior to the Cross?

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:chuckle:

At the risk of setting off one so called "TOL club MAD" member, or another (in general) those among "their number...not wise" in that they so easily take issue with having a thing pointed out to them, though that is all they themselves do all day to anyone not of their so called "number" :

What's your take on the following; Jerry?

I know you have gone into it before: but I forget; as it has been a long time since you last voiced your view on it.

John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. 8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him. 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him. 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

For it appears to be connected to their New Covenant promise of the Spirit yet future from John's narrative, as the Lord has not yet died: at that point; and the Spirit has not yet been given.

In other words, they were still under the Law in Matthew thru John.

Thus, their need to "continue in my word...until the time of reformation..."

Hebrews 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Thus, He was still reminding them of things in line with that; such as this...

Matthew 8:1 When he was come down from the mountain, great multitudes followed him. 8:2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean. 8:3 And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed. 8:4 And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.

This here...

Leviticus 14:2 This shall be the law of the leper in the day of his cleansing: He shall be brought unto the priest: 14:3 And the priest shall go forth out of the camp; and the priest shall look, and, behold, if the plague of leprosy be healed in the leper; 14:4 Then shall the priest command to take for him that is to be cleansed two birds alive and clean, and cedar wood, and scarlet, and hyssop: 14:5 And the priest shall command that one of the birds be killed in an earthen vessel over running water: 14:6 As for the living bird, he shall take it, and the cedar wood, and the scarlet, and the hyssop, and shall dip them and the living bird in the blood of the bird that was killed over the running water: 14:7 And he shall sprinkle upon him that is to be cleansed from the leprosy seven times, and shall pronounce him clean, and shall let the living bird loose into the open field. 14:8 And he that is to be cleansed shall wash his clothes, and shave off all his hair, and wash himself in water, that he may be clean: and after that he shall come into the camp, and shall tarry abroad out of his tent seven days. 14:9 But it shall be on the seventh day, that he shall shave all his hair off his head and his beard and his eyebrows, even all his hair he shall shave off: and he shall wash his clothes, also he shall wash his flesh in water, and he shall be clean. 14:10 And on the eighth day he shall take two he lambs without blemish, and one ewe lamb of the first year without blemish, and three tenth deals of fine flour for a meat offering, mingled with oil, and one log of oil. 14:11 And the priest that maketh him clean shall present the man that is to be made clean, and those things, before the LORD, at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation:

And so on.

Until this...

Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Meaning that the eternal life those passages in John are promising is still connected: at that point - still under the Law - with the passing over of their sins (definition of "remission" of sins, under the Law, or first testament) through the forebearance of God...

This here..

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Your thoughts?

And thanks...

Danoh said:

In other words, they were still under the Law in Matthew thru John.

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Yes, but even then the Jews were saved by grace through faith just as we are (Ro.4:16).

I am not sure what it is that you want me to address.

Jerry Shugart said:

Do you not think that believers possessed eternal life prior to the Cross?

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They had to wait for the Messiah to be made perfect.

Hebrews 11:40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

The Prophets had the Holy Spirit in them to speak to the people, but not all the saved had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. When they lived on earth, God walked near them, and when they died, they did not go to the prison/hell as the disobedient went.

God's Truth said:

They had to wait for the Messiah to be made perfect.

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You did not answer my question: