ECT Yet Future?

D

Danoh

New member
In part of the following, the Apostle Paul is quoting two of Israel's Prophets.

Some assert it is yet future, others assert its' yet future was only yet future to the Prophets who originally wrote it.

Meaning, one cannot go by "the Greek" Grammar - case, mood, tense, voice, and so on - alone.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Overall narrative and scope...governs.
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Danoh said:
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Click to expand...

This is obviously talking about the future because the fulfillment of the "covenant" which is spoken of remains in the future.

It is clearly seen that the prophecy at Jeremiah 31:31-34 in regard to that covenant has not yet been fulfilled.
 
D

daqq

Well-known member
Danoh said:
In part of the following, the Apostle Paul is quoting two of Israel's Prophets.

Some assert it is yet future, others assert its' yet future was only yet future to the Prophets who originally wrote it.

Meaning, one cannot go by "the Greek" Grammar - case, mood, tense, voice, and so on - alone.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Overall narrative and scope...governs.
Click to expand...

Foremost context is Isaiah 59, (LXX), because of the quote from Isa 59:20-21, (LXX), and therefore concerns not "Gentiles", as commonly understood, but rather heathen-nations, (particularly the seven heathen-nations as symbolically used in Dt 7:1, (re: Acts 13:19, 40-41, Hab 1:5-11, Lk 21:24, Lk 11:24-26)), and thus the Romans passage should be understood to read, "fullness of the nations", as opposed to "fullness of the Gentiles", (as most often rendered), because of how Paul employs "Barbarians", "Greeks", and ethnos-nations-heathen-gentiles throughout the epistle to the Romans, (ethnos should be understood simply as "nations", and whether it is meant in a good or bad sense should be determined only by the surrounding context).
 
D

daqq

Well-known member
Jerry Shugart said:
It is clearly seen that the prophecy at Jeremiah 31:31-34 in regard to that covenant has not yet been fulfilled.
Click to expand...

It is personal and individual, just as is all of the Gospel; to each in his or her own appointed times, and thus, you only speak for yourself when you say that the Jeremiah 31 new covenant has not yet been fulfilled.
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
Jerry Shugart said:
This is obviously talking about the future because the fulfillment of the "covenant" which is spoken of remains in the future.

It is clearly seen that the prophecy at Jeremiah 31:31-34 in regard to that covenant has not yet been fulfilled.
Click to expand...





It was future to Isaiah; present to Paul. There are too many places that say the new covenant is in action already.
 
turbosixx

turbosixx

New member
Danoh said:
In part of the following, the Apostle Paul is quoting two of Israel's Prophets.

Some assert it is yet future, others assert its' yet future was only yet future to the Prophets who originally wrote it.

Meaning, one cannot go by "the Greek" Grammar - case, mood, tense, voice, and so on - alone.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Overall narrative and scope...governs.
Click to expand...

So Israel is still under the old covenant?
 
D

Danoh

New member
turbosixx said:
So Israel is still under the old covenant?
Click to expand...

More like stuck in it...

Acts 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. 13:40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets; 13:41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.

13:45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming. 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

2 Corinthians 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
daqq said:
It is personal and individual, just as is all of the Gospel; to each in his or her own appointed times, and thus, you only speak for yourself when you say that the Jeremiah 31 new covenant has not yet been fulfilled.
Click to expand...

Jeremiah 31:31-34 speaks of a time when all of the physical descendants of the houses of Israel and Judah will know the LORD and have their sins forgiven. You have to be from another planet if you actually think that has happened in the past.
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Interplanner said:
It was future to Isaiah; present to Paul. There are too many places that say the new covenant is in action already.
Click to expand...

You have been given many opportunities to deal with what is actually said at Jeremiah 31:31-34 and so far you have not had one intelligent thing to say about it.

There we can see that the "fathers" of those who will make up both the house of Israel and the house of Judah are described as the physical descendants of Israel because they are the ones who broke the covenant. And every one of those physical descendants of both houses will know the LORD and have their sins forgiven.
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
Jerry Shugart said:
Jeremiah 31:31-34 speaks of a time when all of the physical descendants of the houses of Israel and Judah will know the LORD and have their sins forgiven. You have to be from another planet if you actually think that has happened in the past.
Click to expand...




I am proudly from plant "in Christ." You seem to have no idea what that means in NT theology.
 
turbosixx

turbosixx

New member
Danoh said:
More like stuck in it...

Acts 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. 13:40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets; 13:41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.

13:45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming. 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

2 Corinthians 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
Click to expand...

Those verses show the Jews were blind and ignorant but does not say they are still under the old covenant. 2 Cor. 3:14 says the vail is done away in Christ. Am I missing your point?
 
Last edited:
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
Jerry,
Most prophecy is meant like Dan 9: the city and sanctuary are done away with but Messiah has accomplished everything he set out to do. That was the answer to Daniel's prayer about what would become of his people. It is fulfilled--the purpose is realize--in Christ.
 
D

daqq

Well-known member
Jerry Shugart said:
daqq said:
It is personal and individual, just as is all of the Gospel; to each in his or her own appointed times, and thus, you only speak for yourself when you say that the Jeremiah 31 new covenant has not yet been fulfilled.
Click to expand...
Jeremiah 31:31-34 speaks of a time when all of the physical descendants of the houses of Israel and Judah will know the LORD and have their sins forgiven. You have to be from another planet if you actually think that has happened in the past.
Click to expand...

As I said and you quoted, it is personal and individual, just as is all of the Gospel; to each in his or her own appointed times, times appointed of the Father, as even Paul says in Gal 4:1-2 KJV, (a day and hour which no one one knows, but the Father only, that is, when a babe or child becomes a son). The Testimony of Messiah refutes your historical dispensational "futurist" minded physical literal "all-at-once" and "one-time-only-fulfillment" theology. The following passage actually concerns the Bema Seat of Messiah, which Paul likewise teaches, (because he found out by way of his own experience which he relates in 2Cor 12:1-4), and it is personal and individual, each in his or her own appointed times:

Luke 19:11-20 KJV
11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear [parachrema - "instantly in full wealth(glory)"].
12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, ["earnest of the Spirit", 2Cor 5:5-10 KJV] and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, [Acts 2:1-4 prototype] having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading [2Cor 5:10-11].
16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:

Then came the first . . .
Then the second came . . .
And then another came . . .
And so on, and so on, until you yourself are called up . . .

Therefore knowing the terror of the Master we persuade men: for we have been made fully manifest before Elohim, and we are not reprobate-castaways, (for the kingdom of the heavens is like unto a net that was cast into the sea).
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
daqq said:
As I said and you quoted, it is personal and individual, just as is all of the Gospel; to each in his or her own appointed times, times appointed of the Father, as even Paul says in Gal 4:1-2 KJV, (a day and hour which no one one knows, but the Father only, that is, when a babe or child becomes a son).
Click to expand...

You just IGNORE the fact that Jeremiah 31:31-34 speaks of a time when all the physical descendants of israel will be saved. And Paul made it plain that will not happen until the future.
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Interplanner said:
Jerry,
Most prophecy is meant like Dan 9: the city and sanctuary are done away with...
Click to expand...

You ought to actually read what is said about the city at Daniel 9;

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy" (Dan.9:24).​
 
D

daqq

Well-known member
Jerry Shugart said:
You just IGNORE the fact that Jeremiah 31:31-34 speaks of a time when all the physical descendants of israel will be saved. And Paul made it plain that will not happen until the future.
Click to expand...

You are ignorant of the fact that the holy seed line has always been spiritual, even from the very beginning, and that is why the genealogies are all "father-to-son", (because one is grafted in to the all Israel and olive tree of the Father by faith just as was the Canaanite woman of Tyre in Matthew 15:21-28). Your hyper-dispensationalism has blinded you to the truth and cut you off from the Root of the olive tree.
 
turbosixx

turbosixx

New member
Jerry Shugart said:
Jeremiah 31:31-34 speaks of a time when all of the physical descendants of the houses of Israel and Judah will know the LORD and have their sins forgiven. You have to be from another planet if you actually think that has happened in the past.
Click to expand...

Two problems here.

First, your adding the word "physical".

Second, those on Pentecost knew the Lord because they were baptized in his name and they had their sins forgiven. That happened in the past just like Jeremiah said it would.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top