ECT Water Baptism Not For Today
- Thread starter turbosixx
- Start date
Water baptism is not a “requirement” for salvation since God does the saving, but is something Christians get to do in order to help them.
New Christians may not tap into everything that is available to them to help them experience the transformation:
I know that I needed everything God could provide to assure me of my conversion, both outwardly and mentally. God wants you to physically feel the experience of what is going on Spiritually.
You need to add to your conversion a definite time place and physical experience, which God has provided for you. We talk about being “Born again”, which comes from Nicodemus encounter with Christ (John 3 :1-21):
Being “born again” is what Jesus told Nicodemus he need to do. This requires some thinking, because Jesus does not address the questions or comments that are verbalized, but directs his comments to the persons next step in their personal spiritual development (what is on their heart spiritually). Jesus is not making some general philosophical statement (like Buddha might make) but is always addressing the audience He is talking to. We have to get into the context.
What did Nicodemus need to do next in his spiritual development?
What does Nicodemus need to be doing next? (study the Old Testament, become one of the followers of Jesus right then and there, Confess, repent, etc.)
The first thing Nicodemus might do at least is what he already knows he should do? Is that not where you would start? So what is that?
Since Nicodemus is still part of the Sanhedrin, he would not have been immersed baptized by John’s baptism. That would have got him thrown out of the Sanhedrin, but being smart Nicodemus would know he should be baptized.
John’s baptism would have been a hot topic among the religious scholars, yet the answer was obvious and they all know it (remember Jesus using it against them and causing them to quit asking him questions?)
Jesus is not going to hand out the answer to Nicodemus, since Nicodemus knows the answer, but he will make Nicodemus think about it hard, since it would already be on his mind.
Christian water baptism as seen in scripture seems to fit the “born again” scenario Christ was talking about since it: Is always adult (there are only two examples that “might include infants” but nothing definite, all the others are adult believers) water immersion to be a physical outward representation of what had or is happening spiritually in the person being baptized. It is mainly to help the individual being baptized to better grasp what is going on, but it can “witness” to others observing the baptism. It has the elements of going down under the water (burying the old man), placing your dependence in another; the person baptizing you (surrendering your life to God), being washed (having your sins washed away), rising out of the water (rising from the old dead body), and stepping forth out onto the earth (a new person). The person is walking out into the hugs of his new family. It is also a sign of your humility, since it is a humbling act anyone can simple allow someone to do it to them (so not a work) and since humility has been shown in the accept of charity (God’s free gift of undeserving forgiveness) it should just support and add to the memory of that acceptance. To refuse Christian water baptism when it is readily available might mean you are not ready to handle other responsibility like having the indwelling Holy Spirit and you are hurting yourself.
Why not be baptized again (there is no rule against this) to experience all you can from being baptized?
Yes, Ro. 10 is silent about baptism, but silence is not a proof for anything and baptism was not the topic being discussed, the Jews had to believe first, so baptism would be down the road.
Is the real problem with humility, since adult water baptism is a humbling act?
Is the problem with “witnessing” since baptism help other Christians remember what they went through?
The whole “argument” about the “one” baptism having to be “spiritual baptism” so we do not need to (or even shouldn’t) be water immersed is not supported by scriptural examples, since everyone that was “baptized” by the Holy Spirit seems to have also been water baptized.
New Christians may not tap into everything that is available to them to help them experience the transformation:
I know that I needed everything God could provide to assure me of my conversion, both outwardly and mentally. God wants you to physically feel the experience of what is going on Spiritually.
You need to add to your conversion a definite time place and physical experience, which God has provided for you. We talk about being “Born again”, which comes from Nicodemus encounter with Christ (John 3 :1-21):
Being “born again” is what Jesus told Nicodemus he need to do. This requires some thinking, because Jesus does not address the questions or comments that are verbalized, but directs his comments to the persons next step in their personal spiritual development (what is on their heart spiritually). Jesus is not making some general philosophical statement (like Buddha might make) but is always addressing the audience He is talking to. We have to get into the context.
What did Nicodemus need to do next in his spiritual development?
What does Nicodemus need to be doing next? (study the Old Testament, become one of the followers of Jesus right then and there, Confess, repent, etc.)
The first thing Nicodemus might do at least is what he already knows he should do? Is that not where you would start? So what is that?
Since Nicodemus is still part of the Sanhedrin, he would not have been immersed baptized by John’s baptism. That would have got him thrown out of the Sanhedrin, but being smart Nicodemus would know he should be baptized.
John’s baptism would have been a hot topic among the religious scholars, yet the answer was obvious and they all know it (remember Jesus using it against them and causing them to quit asking him questions?)
Jesus is not going to hand out the answer to Nicodemus, since Nicodemus knows the answer, but he will make Nicodemus think about it hard, since it would already be on his mind.
Christian water baptism as seen in scripture seems to fit the “born again” scenario Christ was talking about since it: Is always adult (there are only two examples that “might include infants” but nothing definite, all the others are adult believers) water immersion to be a physical outward representation of what had or is happening spiritually in the person being baptized. It is mainly to help the individual being baptized to better grasp what is going on, but it can “witness” to others observing the baptism. It has the elements of going down under the water (burying the old man), placing your dependence in another; the person baptizing you (surrendering your life to God), being washed (having your sins washed away), rising out of the water (rising from the old dead body), and stepping forth out onto the earth (a new person). The person is walking out into the hugs of his new family. It is also a sign of your humility, since it is a humbling act anyone can simple allow someone to do it to them (so not a work) and since humility has been shown in the accept of charity (God’s free gift of undeserving forgiveness) it should just support and add to the memory of that acceptance. To refuse Christian water baptism when it is readily available might mean you are not ready to handle other responsibility like having the indwelling Holy Spirit and you are hurting yourself.
Why not be baptized again (there is no rule against this) to experience all you can from being baptized?
Yes, Ro. 10 is silent about baptism, but silence is not a proof for anything and baptism was not the topic being discussed, the Jews had to believe first, so baptism would be down the road.
Is the real problem with humility, since adult water baptism is a humbling act?
Is the problem with “witnessing” since baptism help other Christians remember what they went through?
The whole “argument” about the “one” baptism having to be “spiritual baptism” so we do not need to (or even shouldn’t) be water immersed is not supported by scriptural examples, since everyone that was “baptized” by the Holy Spirit seems to have also been water baptized.
Hi and does not give a count , BUT John the Baptist . Water Baptized all of Jerusalem and ALL of Judaea in Matt 3:5 !!
dan p
Hi and any good reading of Luke will see that Israel was set aside and that means that Water Baptism and the Law of Moses was set aside !!
Here are just two verses , one is in Luke 13:6-9 !!
The other is in 2 Cor 3:14 !!
In verse 16 , can you explain how Jews that have been set aside ARE SAVED ??
Today Water Baptism JUST gets you wet , so bring some SOAP and wash cloth and then you will be clean !!
dan p
oatmeal
Well-known member
There is no need for confusion about water baptism. The verses below tell us that it was replaced by a greater baptism.
Both John the B and Jesus the anointed foretold that John's water baptism would be replaced by the baptism instituted by Jesus Christ, ie, baptism in holy spirit.
The baptism in holy spirit refers to the day of Pentecost, after that day it became baptism in the name of Jesus Christ. Water is obsolete.
With the coming of the greater, the lesser was obsolete.
What does it mean to baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, it is to receive all that Jesus Christ made available to any who chooses to do Romans 10:9 and follows that up with coming to the knowledge of the truth, I Timothy 2:4b
Matthew 3:11
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Mark 1:8
I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
Luke 3:16
John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
John 1:33
And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
Acts 1:5
For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 8:16
(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Acts 10:48
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Acts 11:16
Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Acts 19:4-5
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
1 Corinthians 1:13
Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
Both John the B and Jesus the anointed foretold that John's water baptism would be replaced by the baptism instituted by Jesus Christ, ie, baptism in holy spirit.
The baptism in holy spirit refers to the day of Pentecost, after that day it became baptism in the name of Jesus Christ. Water is obsolete.
With the coming of the greater, the lesser was obsolete.
What does it mean to baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, it is to receive all that Jesus Christ made available to any who chooses to do Romans 10:9 and follows that up with coming to the knowledge of the truth, I Timothy 2:4b
Matthew 3:11
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Mark 1:8
I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
Luke 3:16
John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
John 1:33
And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
Acts 1:5
For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 8:16
(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Acts 10:48
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Acts 11:16
Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Acts 19:4-5
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
1 Corinthians 1:13
Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Sure, just add the word "spiritual" and that fixes your problem. And then you have the nerve to accuse me twisting the Scriptures!
dodge
New member
It really is not that hard to understand "1" baptism by the Spirit.
Can you provide even "1"verse where water baptism was set aside or done away with ? No you cannot.
Baptism is how the Body of Christ receives a new individual member into communion, and how we are, "washed . . . sanctified . . . [and] justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God" (1Co6:11KJV).
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Paul doesn't say "one baptism by the Spirit."
dodge
New member
Paul never did away with water baptism as no other Apostle did !
EVERYONE in the NT that got saved got water baptized except the thief on the cross and he never had the opportunity.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
So are you arguing that the one baptism is the rite of water baptism and not the one of 1 Corinthians 12:13?
Of course you proved nothing. In order to understand why water baptism was discontinued you must firsr understand its purpose beginning with John the Baptist. In the first century the coming of the King and the Kingdom was at hand. John the Baptist was sent out to prepare the people for the coming of the King:
"In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight" (Mt.3:1-3).
It was necessary for the people to have a change of mind in regard to their sinful life style in order "make ready a people prepared for the Lord" so that they "might serve Him...in holiness and righteousness" (Lk.1:17,74-75).
Those who submitted to the rite of water baptism were acknowledging their sinful lifestyle and pledging to change their way of life in order that they might serve the Lord. In exchange, they were given the knowledge that their past sins were forgiven and that they were beginning their service for the Lord with a clean slate.
However, since the people rejected their promised King His return to set up His Kingdom has been postponed and it will not be until He returns to the earth when the Kingdom will be at hand:
"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand" (Lk.21:27-31).
At the present time we are not waiting for the Lord Jesus to return to the earth. Before that can possibly happen certain events must first take place, such as the setting up of the abomination of desolation in the holy place (Mt.24:15). Therefore, the purpose of water baptism, to prepare a people for the return of the Lord Jesus, is no longer in order.
dodge
New member
WHY do you ignore that Paul got baptized as did every person in the NT that got saved was water baptized as commanded to do so by Jesus ? Do you follow and believe "Jerry" more than Jesus and every person in the NT ?
If one refuses to be water baptized as Jesus taught why would you believe God would spiritually baptize that person ?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
When Paul got saved the earthly kingdom was still in view.
Why do you continue to insist the the ONE BAPTISM is water baptism despite the fact that it is obvious that this is the ONE BAPTISM?:
"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).
dodge
New member
Why do you go against what Jesus taught ? Jesus said to the Apostles go forth and teach and baptize the nations. Jerry, you are on the wrong side of this.
Jesus said to be baptized and not ONE verse in all of scripture sets aside or invalidates water baptism. You might want to pray and rethink this matter. You find yourself disagreeing and fighting with Jesus and that is NOT good.
Mat 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
The Holy Spirit baptizing believers into the body has not negated water baptism.
Hi and IF you knew what ALL NATIONS / ENTHOS means , tell me ??
What did Jesus command us to learn , spell it out ??
Explain John 11:48 , and 50 and 51 , so say what NATION / ETHNOS means ??
Just dying to hear you confusion !!
dan p
I said
The purpose of it was to receive the Holy Spirit. Maybe that is why so many people don't know the Holy Spirit.
Unchecked Copy Box Act 2:38
Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
dodge
New member
dan p , it is not rocket science you, Jerry, and others teach and advocate to ignore Jesus and that is blasphemous.
Hi and Paul calls you ACCURSED in Gal 1:8 and 9 for you are FALLEN from Grace and you are the one that is BLASPHEMOUS and have a VAIL covering your HEART AS wriitn in 1 Cor 3:15 , how does it FEEL ??
dan p
dodge
New member
Nah , it is those in MAD that has brought and believe in another gospel.
You do understand that when you teach to not do as Jesus taught to do you are an ENEMY of the cross ?