ECT Time & Anthropomorphism with GOD
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Jerry Shugart
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Tell me why I shouldn't believe that the words "from the beginning" are not referring to the LORD's "foreknowledge" since both verses are referring to the very same thing:
"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet.1:1-2).
"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Yes, but the following verse is speaking about the plan having already being put into action:
"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" (Eph.1:4).
Believers are not baptized into the Body of Christ (in Him) as a group but individually.
Individual believers were chosen by the LORD before the foundation of the world.
Derf
Well-known member
No, at least not explicitly. Implicitly, you did. You said God is outside time. Then, if the bible is God's word, and it is a history and prophecy book (for the most part), then the whole thing is a figure of speech, at least for the parts where God actually interacts with people.
Think especially about how He talks to people. If all things happen simultaneously with God, then each word He speaks must come at the same time as each other word. But it is obvious that this isn't the case. So God can interpret His timeless actions (the only kind He can have, right?) into timeful actions, even if just for us. And if He interprets all of His timeless actions (not just a few, but all) into timeful actions for the purposes of interacting with us, that doesn't make His actions "figures of speech"--it's what He actually does. So then, if all of the actions of God that we know about (ALL of them) are "timeful"--progressive and sequential--then that is something we can know about God, through His revelation to us. But you are saying we can't believe that part of His revelation. I'm just saying that such is the nature of pretty much the whole bible, and you have rejected its truth.
To reiterate:
If the bible as a history/prophecy book tells us about how God works with His people, but you say it is a figure of speech because it doesn't fit with your conception of God, the bible has ceased to be your source of truth. You've made God out to be a liar.
Keep in mind that I don't know about the things of God that He hasn't revealed to us. It may be that you are absolutely correct on those things. But it isn't revealed to us yet, unless you have another source of truth that most of us don't have access to.
Is that because you don't have anything intelligent to say about post #256?
I think [MENTION=13955]glorydaz[/MENTION] did just fine responding to your #254.
Jerry, so if it's a figure of speech, what does it mean?
Derf
Well-known member
Do they just appear and disappear at will? Are they not sometimes constrained by time and space? Dan 10:13.
There is certainly something different about how they interact with space--I'm not so sure about time. I don't think angels can be in/at more than one place at the same time, so they are somewhat constrained by space.
Sometimes they just "disappear", but often they ascend. Just like Jesus' ascension--He went up. Was that merely for the benefit of the disciples--to maintain for them some perception that wasn't really true? Or is heaven, God's throne, "above" the earth (outside of its spherical boundaries)?
Or are these things just figures of speech and actions Jesus took to maintain the disciples' ignorance about non-earthly things?
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The word "foreknowledge" is used in regard to the following figure of speech:
"Anthropopatheia; Ascribing to God what belongs to human and rational beings" (The Companion Bible; Appendix 6-Figures of Speech)."
If you ascribe to the LORD what belongs to people in regard to "time" then the LORD is constrained by time so any knowledge of the future which He might have would be considered "foreknowledge."
The Scriptures reveal that He does know specific things which will happen in the future:
"Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O Lord, you know it altogether" (Ps.139:4).
Since the LORD knows the future then He is not restrained by time as we are and that can only mean that He exists outside of time. He sees everything, past, present and the future at one glance:
"Much of the difficulty in regard to the doctrine of Predestination is due to the finite character of our mind, which can grasp only a few details at a time, and which understands only a part of the relations between these. We are creatures of time, and often fail to take into consideration the fact that God is not limited as we are. That which appears to us as 'past,' 'present,' and 'future,' is all 'present' to His mind. It is an eternal 'now'...Just as He sees at one glance a road leading from New York to San Francisco, while we see only a small portion of it as we pass over it, so He sees all events in history, past, present, and future at one glance" (Loraine Boettner, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination [Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1932]).
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The question we must ask and answer is if the following verse epeaks of the LORD knowing specific things which will happen in the future:
"Declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’" (Isa.46:20).
I say that He can declare the things not yet done because He has a knowledge of things which will happen in the earthly sphere in the future. Therefore, He is not constrained by time as we are so He must exist outside of time. And the following verse demonstrates that "time" has no relevance to Him:
"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day" (2 Pet.3:8).
In this verse we see a speeding up of time and a slowing down of time in regard to the LORD at the same time. That certainly cannot be in regard to man because we both know that for us a thousand years is NOT as one day. The words of Peter can only apply to the LORD existing outside of time.
Derf
Well-known member
Good post, Jerry! I appreciate you going forward in the conversation. Just know that even though I don't agree with your points, and will argue against them below, the way you articulated them was great!
Isaiah 46 is the very chapter where I started to solidify my belief in an open view of God (notice that I don't call it the open view of the future, but the open view of God), partly because it is so often used as the opposite and partly because it is so strong in what it says (which is why settled theists use it, I suppose). I have to keep in mind that this is my own understanding of God as He presents Himself to us, and it doesn't necessarily reflect exactly how God is--only how He interacts with us and reveals Himself to us.
So read your citation again from Is 46. I'll repeat it here, with some highlighting:
What is it that God is declaring? It is the things He is going to accomplish. He is not saying here that He knows what someone else is going to accomplish, except in those things that are part of His counsel and purpose.
The next verse is like unto the first:
These things don't encompass all of what God knows about what will happen, I don't think, but as an example of God knowing everything that will happen, they are decidedly insufficient. They both only deal with what God brings to pass. They also suggest that there are things that God does NOT bring to pass.
So your question:
Now, if we can apply this principle, that God knows what things are going to happen in the future because He causes them to happen, and if God knows everything that will happen in the future, then it is because He causes everything--that everything is His purpose and His counsel. And that includes sin.
Using Is 46 as a proof of the exhaustive foreknowledge of God makes God the author of sin.
Here's a quick couple of examples that show the text does not talk about a speeding up and slowing of time:
Old people usually talk of things happening so rapidly. They might say to a grandchild, "Why, it seems like only yesterday that you were just learning how to walk, and now you're driving!" A paraphrase of that statement would be "14 years was as a day to me!"
Young people (children) are often impatient when waiting for a special event to occur, like Christmas or birthday, or possibly when they are old enough to go with the big kids. They often feel like it will be a bazillion years before they are old enough to drive a car. So in their case, a day is like a thousand (and a year is like a bazillion) years.
Neither of these two things is evidence of time speeding up for adults or slowing for kids. Or even time changing speeds between childhood and old age.
Isaiah 46 is the very chapter where I started to solidify my belief in an open view of God (notice that I don't call it the open view of the future, but the open view of God), partly because it is so often used as the opposite and partly because it is so strong in what it says (which is why settled theists use it, I suppose). I have to keep in mind that this is my own understanding of God as He presents Himself to us, and it doesn't necessarily reflect exactly how God is--only how He interacts with us and reveals Himself to us.
Spoiler
So read your citation again from Is 46. I'll repeat it here, with some highlighting:
"Declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’" (Isa 46:20).
What is it that God is declaring? It is the things He is going to accomplish. He is not saying here that He knows what someone else is going to accomplish, except in those things that are part of His counsel and purpose.
The next verse is like unto the first:
Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken [it], I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed [it], I will also do it. [Isa 46:11]
These things don't encompass all of what God knows about what will happen, I don't think, but as an example of God knowing everything that will happen, they are decidedly insufficient. They both only deal with what God brings to pass. They also suggest that there are things that God does NOT bring to pass.
So your question:
is not what we need to ask. What we need to ask is if the verse speaks of the LORD knowing EVERYTHING that will happen in the future. And the answer is "No! The verse does NOT speak of that." Neither does it deny that. It is silent on God's exhaustive knowledge of the future. But it is not silent on how God knows what He knows about at least some things in the future. Those things the He determines will most assuredly come to pass, not in a passive way, but with His active participation.
Now, if we can apply this principle, that God knows what things are going to happen in the future because He causes them to happen, and if God knows everything that will happen in the future, then it is because He causes everything--that everything is His purpose and His counsel. And that includes sin.
Using Is 46 as a proof of the exhaustive foreknowledge of God makes God the author of sin.
This has been discussed a number of times on TOL, and hardly needs more comment, except to say that it doesn't in any way require a speeding up or slowing down of time. But if it did, then it would fully debunk your position that God has no relevance to time in our sphere--that He experiences everything simultaneously.
Here's a quick couple of examples that show the text does not talk about a speeding up and slowing of time:
Old people usually talk of things happening so rapidly. They might say to a grandchild, "Why, it seems like only yesterday that you were just learning how to walk, and now you're driving!" A paraphrase of that statement would be "14 years was as a day to me!"
Young people (children) are often impatient when waiting for a special event to occur, like Christmas or birthday, or possibly when they are old enough to go with the big kids. They often feel like it will be a bazillion years before they are old enough to drive a car. So in their case, a day is like a thousand (and a year is like a bazillion) years.
Neither of these two things is evidence of time speeding up for adults or slowing for kids. Or even time changing speeds between childhood and old age.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
So are you saying that all the things which are prophesied are in regard to what the LORD God will accomplish or has accomplished?
Was the LORD responsible for all of the prophecies which have been fulfilled in the sense that He made them happen?
glorydaz
Well-known member
If that was true, then the Calvinists would be right. God chooses us regardless of whether we believe first or not. I can't accept that, as it goes against everything else I see in the word. I see nothing in that verse that says we are chosen individually. The Chosen ONE is the Lord Jesus Christ, and He was chosen before Adam and Eve ever took a bite from the apple.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I never said that. I said that the LORD chooses those who believe for salvation:
"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).
glorydaz
Well-known member
Those....plural. All those....whosoever. :thumb:
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Do you really think that when the Holy Spirit baptizes people into the Body of Christ it does not happen individually but instead in groups?
And do you think that the LORD chooses for salvation groups and not individuals?:
"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).
Derf
Well-known member
No, not all. If the Lord knows what we are going to say before it is on our tongues, then He must know what we think. Therefore some prophecies might be about what someone else is going to do, including sin. But that is NOT what Is 46:20 is talking about. There would then be a distinction between God saying what an existing person is going to do as opposed to saying what a future (not-yet-existing) person is going to do.
And that "someone" might be an angelic or demonic being. That helps me make sense of futuristic prophecies like Revelation. And it explains why there aren't a bunch of names of future people given with prophecies of future events (assuming you don't buy into equidistant letter sequences).
Cyrus is an obvious exception, as the prophecies about him in Isaiah are in advance of his existence, but God is clear that He will accomplish the things about Cyrus, and likely influenced the naming of Cyrus.
Lon
Well-known member
Time is only and simply the same thing all indicators/artificial (created) measurements are - just measurements that are abstract and nothing but a convenient mark. God isn't bound by an inch or a centimeter. He isn't constrained by a barometer, and He isn't at all stuck in succession of seconds, minutes, hours. It is simply an artificial way for all men to keep track of something they are all going through and help with checks and balances like an 9-5 workday 5 days a week or a 6' ladder. Thus, because both (and all measurement) coincides with other universals like the sun and moon etc. we think in terms of those movements. Think of it this way. Does the sun really rise and fall in a 365 1/4 days? :nono: Nope, rather, we arbitrarily, and with the seasons, created something to help check the 'movement' of those things.
Seem odd? Your life is 'bound' to 120 years by God BUT it isn't time that is the factor. What is actually the factor is that you go through changes, thus 'time' is but an artificial measure between states.
True or false: God doesn't change. Malachi 3:6 James 1:7,17 1 John 1:5 Hebrews 6:18; 13:8
Literally, the difference is how we answer.
If God doesn't change, there is no 'movement' thus "Time exists in God because there is nothing Greater our outside of Him. "Movement" necessarily HAS to happen within his infinite being. Colossians 1:17 (another reason the Lord Jesus Christ MUST be God btw, it is necessary).
ANY lack and then something outside of God controls God, including a movement of time specifically because time is but a measurement of change within the infinite parameters of God. It necessarily must be. I appreciate Open Theists, but God cannot (impossible) be constrained by time AND it is important to know it is a construct of movement. No movement-no time. Example: things that do not change are said to have 'stood the test of time' and/or 'defied its ravages.'
glorydaz
Well-known member
Of course not, but that still doesn't make those verses say what you claim about our being foreknown individually.
I don't think God chooses anyone for salvation.
Paul is saying God's choice was to save them through sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth....rather than by obedience to the law or some other means. Paul is speaking of the means by which men are saved. We know what those means are...according to the purpose of His Grace which was known from the beginning.
We know the Jews were a chosen people....for a purpose.
The Apostles were chosen for a purpose.
But, chosen for salvation?
No, I don't see that at all. Chosen TO salvation by grace through faith...yes.
Exactly! He chooses... THOSE WHO BELIEVE! If they don't believe, then He doesn't choose them.
He chose from the beginning "those who believe." he didn't choose "those who didn't believe." but that does not preclude that someone can't move from "those who don't believe" to "those who do believe."
If someone does not believe, then God did not choose them. But if that same person then believes, then God did choose them.
If I'm the CEO of an airline company, and I plan to have a plane go from LAX to ORD (Los Angeles to Chicago) one year from now, I foreknew that that plane would do so, because I predestined it to do so. But that doesn't mean I know who everyone is that will be on that plane a year from now, just that, regardless of who's on it, it will, without fail, fly from LAX to ORD. And if something were to happen before it leaves, say, I sell the plane and buy a new one, then I can certainly change my mind about that plane going from LAX to ORD. Does that make me a liar for saying that the original plane was going to ORD? No. I fully intended to have that plane fly across the country. But then circumstances changed, and I no longer wanted that plane to go to ORD, I wanted to cut it off from my company.
Let's say I'm a father, and I tell my son that if he does well in school for the next month, and gets at least all A minuses in all his subjects, and does everything I and his mother asks him to do, then I'll take the family to Legoland. So the month passes, and at the end of the month, he shows me that he did in fact, get all As or A pluses, and not even a single A minus or below, and has so far done everything I and his mother asked him to do, I agree to take the family to Legoland. However, on the way there, he starts making obnoxious noises, and his mother tells him to stop, but he doesn't listen and keeps making noises, so I tell him that I'm turning the car around, and we're going home. He then starts complaining, and calls me a liar. Jerry, would I be a liar because I originally told him that we would go to LL, but now we aren't? No, I fully intended to take him there, but he didn't keep his end of the deal. I predetermined that we would go to LL, but my son didn't keep his end of the deal, so I couldn't rightly take him to LL. I foreknew that if my son got good grades, I would take the family to LL, and by doing so, I predestined that the family would go there. But when circumstances changed, that plan fell through.
God says the same thing:
The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it,if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it.And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it,if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it. - Jeremiah 18:7-10 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah18:7-10&version=NKJV
In that passage, Jerry, and this gets more into the calvinism vs open theism debate, but it's still related, did the potter at the wheel ever finish the first vessel?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
So once the prophecies concerning Cyrus were revealed then he was going to fulfill those prophecies no matter what?
If your ideas are correct then his will was in bondage from the moment those prophecies were made known because if those prophecies were not fulfilled as written then the LORD would have made a mistake!
And what about the Lord Jesus?
From the moment when the prophecies concerning His sufferings were revealed then His will was also in bondage because if He didn't submit to the Cross then those prophecies would have been false. But here is what the Lord Jesus prayed to the Father on the eve of the Cross:
"And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt" (Mt.26:39).