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Thread: Real Science Friday Trochlea Challenge

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    Real Science Friday Trochlea Challenge

    Real Science Friday Trochlea Challenge

    This is the show from Friday December 12, 2008.

    SUMMARY:

    * Trochlea Challenge to Any Evolutionist: Real Science Friday challenges any evolutionist to view this JPG image of the Trochlea Challenge. Bob Enyart and RSF co-host Fred Williams discuss the debate over at TheologyOnline.com on Entropy and Evolution which led the Bob Enyart Live staff to commission the attached diagram of the muscles of the eye and the Trochlea sling, to disseminate this challenge. The image shows that the Superior Oblique muscle attached to the top of the eye is threaded through a sling, the Trochlea, for functionality (angle of torque, space requirements, etc.) and the strap-like muscle narrows to a cord to slide through. Darwin's natural selection could not choose this configuration until if functioned minimally. How many generations of offspring with random mutations modifying the design of the various tissue types like bone, nerve, cartilage, and muscle, happening simultaneously do you estimate would have to pass before this most simple of design features of the eye happened upon by chance in order for natural selection to choose it? Now estimate the generations of offspring for a complex feature of the eye...

    * A Very Encouraging RSF Listener: wrote about our March 28, 2008 program Real Science Friday- Caterpillar Kills Atheism:
    "I cannot emphasize how much I love this stuff....it's simplicity and truth at its finest -- I thrive on it..I crave it: No science [background] required... no knowledge of any goofy theory, no [higher-education] schooling, no professors, no degrees, no books [needed, just eyes], no university study to rely on -- just two guys talking about the miracle of creation. After listening to this short audio, it should be obvious and self-evident to everyone that God is the Creator of all. Check it out -- it's a great listen. Bob Enyart and Fred Williams tell a great story and put on display the staggering brilliance, genius and beauty of our living God.

    p.s. please do yourself a favor and listen to it all..... and notice the creationists' $20,000 offer to the evolution institution to carbon date the soft tissue t-rex... I really do love common sense and wisdom. There is so little of it to go around nowadays, when I hear two people who are obviously wise and not fooled by today's mob of storytellers in science and media, it just gives an all-over warm feeling and a desire to thank God for people like this."

    Wow, that's humbling. You equally encourage us! Thanks so much! In Christ, -Bob and Fred

    For our Real Science Friday friends, in case you miss other BEL programs, here are some of the:
    Atheists Bob Enyart has debated...
    - ABC's Reginald Finley, called The Infidel Guy, from ABC's Wife Swap program; 3-26-07;
    - Freedom from Religion Foundation's Dan Barker (a founder of the group that put the atheist sign near the Nativity at the capitol in Seattle) who as a teen was involved with the ministry of Kathryn Kuhlman, one of a group of so-called faith healers. (See a BEL listener who initially compared Bob to Benny Hinn until...) The BEL show was on 12-11-08;
    - TheologyOnline's psychologist Zakath in a 10-round moderated written online debate, also available in soft cover;
    - TOL's member who calls himself Fool; 3-28-06;
    - John Henderson who wrote the book God.com 6-15-2006; and,
    - Michael Shermer, an editor with Scientific American and the Skeptic Society who in in this famous 73-second excerpt on BEL denied that the sun is a light, illustrating that it's tough debating atheists when they're hesitant to admit to even the most obvious common ground. 8-28-03

    BEL Indiana Seminars: Bob Enyart is coming to Indiana, Goshen in the evening of Jan. 29th and Indianapolis on Saturday January 31st, to present a brand new BEL Seminar titled Hermeneutics: Tools for Studying the Bible. Learn how to use tools of interpretation as you study the Bible. And as importantly, Bob will discuss the principles involved for prioritizing these hermeneutics and how to decide which tool to use in which instance. You'll love it! Click for more info and to register please call 1-800-8Enyart!

    Today's Three Resources:
    1. You might enjoy reading Bob's book-length debate, Does God Exist? Remember, unlike virtually any other publisher, BEL offers a money-back guarantee if not satisfied! However, we're usually perfectly satisfied with your money Actually, if YOU are not satisified, you can return any particular BEL resource for a full refund!
    2. Do you hope to move someone from unbelief to trusting in Christ? That typically involves breaking down both pride and misconceptions. You do NOT need anything from BEL to accomplish this! You can use prayer and the Scriptures. But if you would like some help from BEL, you could consider how the five powerful titles in the BEL Evangelism Pack can help someone decide to convert to Christianity!
    3. Also through January 2009, please request our thank you Walt Brown gift set for a donation of $100 or more to BEL (online or by calling 1-800-8Enyart), and we will send you:
    - the BRAND NEW hardcopy 8th Edition of Walt's watershed book, In The Beginning (for you to keep)
    - the hardcopy 7th Edition of Walt's book (for you to give as a gift to someone, it's FABULOUS TOO)
    - and the Walt Brown Week CD so you can hear Dr. Brown talk through the key concepts of creation!

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    It seems that they have an answer for this:


    http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...d.php?t=122310
    "He who learns must suffer.Even in our sleep, pain which cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart until, in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom through the awful grace of God." Aeschylus

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    Once again, we have a Pastor Bob, "This is really hard to understand, therefore Goddidit", moment.
    "Against stupidity, the gods themselves fight in vain", G. Smiley

    "Send money, guns and lawyers..." W. Zevon

    "If it is possible for something to happen, that is evidence that it did happen." Stripe on TOL

    "There but for fortune...", P. Ochs

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jukia View Post
    Once again, we have a Pastor Bob, "This is really hard to understand, therefore Goddidit", moment.
    Once again we have Jokia contributing nothing to a thread but
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
    When the world is a monster
    Bad to swallow you whole
    Kick the clay that holds the teeth in
    Throw your trolls out the door

    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
    -Bob B.

    Nominate POTYs. See this thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    Once again we have Jokia contributing nothing to a thread but
    If something currently seems inexplicable by our current understanding, do you consider that a good reason to attribute it to God?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePhy View Post
    If something currently seems inexplicable by our current understanding, do you consider that a good reason to attribute it to God?
    It seems here that not only is that a good reason to attribute it to God but is MUST therefore be attributed to God. (Well at least the literal Biblical God).
    "Against stupidity, the gods themselves fight in vain", G. Smiley

    "Send money, guns and lawyers..." W. Zevon

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    Of particular interest is this link in that thread to a number of technical articles about the evolution of the eyeball.

    Anyone want to take bets on whether or not Enyart / Williams will give answer to those technical articles? Or will they choose to take the ground they might have gained by their simplistic approach of pretending there is no credible evolutionary pathway to the eye, and silently avoid actually addressing the real evidence?
    Last edited by Knight; December 19th, 2008 at 04:00 PM.

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    Evolution Journal resolves Trochlea challenge w/o even a mention!

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePhy View Post
    Good link. Of particular interest is this link in that thread to a number of technical articles about the evolution of the eyeball.

    Anyone want to take bets on whether or not Enyart / Williams will give answer to those technical articles? Or will they choose to take the ground they might have gained by their simplistic approach of pretending there is no credible evolutionary pathway to the eye, and silently avoid actually addressing the real evidence?
    ThePhy was following a post in another online forum that had a thread about our KGOV Trochlea Challenge, which stated:

    Here is an entire journal issue on this very topic. Enjoy the rest of the day.

    I had followed that other forum's link to Evolution Education & Outreach Journal on the Evolution of the Eye. I realize pointing us to that issue is a way of saying that evolutionists have done the groundwork to show that there are no known insurmoutable problems to the evolution of a biological vision system.

    But the attached jpg is KGOV's Trochlea Challenge. Is there an article in that journal issue that deals with this Trochlea challenge? Please provide the link if you can find it. I searched "Within this Journal" and "Within this Issue" and didn't find any references. Searching other journals turns up zillions of articles that mention a trochlea of course, many dealing with knees, etc. But these two links, Dr. GH's and ThePhy's, to a journal issue that doesn't deal with this eye trochlea challenge, seems unresponsive.

    Thanks for trying though!

    -Bob Enyart
    KGOV.com
    The Bob Enyart Live talk show airs at KGOV.com weekdays at 5 pm E.T. Also, same time, same station, check out Theology Thursday (.com) and on Fridays, Real Science Radio (.com) a.k.a. rsr.org. All shows are available 24/7 and you can call us at at 1-800-8Enyart.

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    An argument based on personal incredulity may seem persuasive to the easily impressed but it's a very weak argument indeed.
    If wealth was the inevitable result of hard work and enterprise, every woman in Africa would be a millionaire.
    --George Monbiot




    Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Enyart View Post
    ThePhy was following a post in another online forum that had a thread about our KGOV Trochlea Challenge, which stated:

    Here is an entire journal issue on this very topic. Enjoy the rest of the day.

    I had followed that other forum's link to Evolution Education & Outreach Journal on the Evolution of the Eye. I realize pointing us to that issue is a way of saying that evolutionists have done the groundwork to show that there are no known insurmoutable problems to the evolution of a biological vision system.

    But the attached jpg is KGOV's Trochlea Challenge. Is there an article in that journal issue that deals with this Trochlea challenge? Please provide the link if you can find it. I searched "Within this Journal" and "Within this Issue" and didn't find any references. Searching other journals turns up zillions of articles that mention a trochlea of course, many dealing with knees, etc. But these two links, Dr. GH's and ThePhy's, to a journal issue that doesn't deal with this eye trochlea challenge, seems unresponsive.

    Thanks for trying though!

    -Bob Enyart
    KGOV.com
    Bob, a couple of the evolutionists deal with the challenge in that thread. You just have to read on a bit. Anyway, it's all beyond me.
    "He who learns must suffer.Even in our sleep, pain which cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart until, in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom through the awful grace of God." Aeschylus

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePhy View Post
    If something currently seems inexplicable by our current understanding, do you consider that a good reason to attribute it to God?
    I don't see anything inexplicable here. Do you?
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
    When the world is a monster
    Bad to swallow you whole
    Kick the clay that holds the teeth in
    Throw your trolls out the door

    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
    -Bob B.

    Nominate POTYs. See this thread.

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    Sometimes I am staggered as to how much applause some give others for argumentation from ignorance. This topic has been addressed ad nauseum by "evolutionists" (BTW, regarding the term "evolutionists"; do the biblical literals here call people who believe positively in the theory of gravity as "gravitationalists"?) in other science forums. Just because you cannot understand the answer, doesn't mean your question has not been adequately answered. If you're asking it, it's up to you to be able to understand it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    I don't see anything inexplicable here. Do you?
    I asked a general question. If something currently seems inexplicable by our current understanding, do you consider that a good reason to attribute it to God?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePhy View Post
    I asked a general question. If something currently seems inexplicable by our current understanding, do you consider that a good reason to attribute it to God?
    God made everything so I guess I would attribute everything to Him regardless of how well I understood it.
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
    When the world is a monster
    Bad to swallow you whole
    Kick the clay that holds the teeth in
    Throw your trolls out the door

    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
    -Bob B.

    Nominate POTYs. See this thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    It seems that they have an answer for this:


    http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...d.php?t=122310
    There are several laughable and illogical points made there. The very thing jokia says she is against.

    Hey I have an idea. Let's sit around and think up ways an obvious complex machine wasn't designed. Just stop pretending you are trying to find answers, when many are not.
    Jesus saves completely. http://www.climatedepot.com/ http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

    Titus 1

    For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped

    Ephesians 5

    11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret

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