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Thread: Discussion thread for Bob and Johnny's One on One

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    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Discussion thread for Bob and Johnny's One on One

    This thread is designed so that we TOL'ers can discuss the One on One that is now taking place between Bob Enyart and Johnny.

    The One on One is titled: Entropy and Evolution: Bob Enyart & Johnny, and is located here.

    Bob and Johnny's One on One will end on December 19th.
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    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Has johnny ever posted any info about himself on TOL? What does he do for a living? Is he a teacher, doctor, or scientist? Johnny if you read this and you wouldn't mind telling us a bit about yourself that would be much appreciated. I only ask because it makes the One on One even more interesting knowing a bit about the participants. Thank you in advance if you choose to give us a quick bio, and if not that's fine as well.
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    Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle Stripe's Avatar
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    Just to be clear I never suggested that the second law of thermodynamics was the problem evolutionists have. I consistently indicated in LoL's thread that the second law was most commonly applied to situations of heat transfer, but that it was just as applicable to other situations.
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
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    Throw your trolls out the door

    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
    -Bob B.


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    LIFETIME MEMBER Yorzhik's Avatar
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    There are some interesting things about the argument from information against evolution. One is that Shannon's definition of information fits. Another is that the energy problem is so closely tied to the information problem because information must always be carried on a medium - it cannot exist intrinsic to itself - and the medium itself is subject to the 2nd law's tendency to break things down.

    It's like a symphony of coherence against the cacophony of noise from evolutionists.
    Good things come to those who shoot straight.

    Did you only want evidence you are not going to call "wrong"? -Stripe

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    I like the point that Bob makes about how complex systems tend to break down instead of becoming more structured. Tends to make me think that evolutionists would be in favor of more toxic dump sites and pollution and all. Who's to know that we may be hindering the development of a cosmic mixture of elements that will produce a superbeing capable of curing cancer or thinking of the solution to bring about world peace. After all, who should judge what is right or wrong and if the elements exist then why shouldn't we let them be together, right? Who can tell us who can be a compound and who can't? I say we start legislation right now in California. Proposition 9 for the union of pollutants and contaminants. After all you should't judge them as unhealthy. It just might be my definition of healthy!! California is such a hypocritical state. Down with the EPA!!!
    Mt 7:14 - Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

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    Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle Stripe's Avatar
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    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
    When the world is a monster
    Bad to swallow you whole
    Kick the clay that holds the teeth in
    Throw your trolls out the door

    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
    -Bob B.


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    TOL Subscriber chatmaggot's Avatar
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    I think I understand what Bob was saying here:

    Sorry. Actually, the paper didn't even make the distinction between information entropy and heat entropy that I just did. So, to realize what Styer's paper actually claimed, just delete the two bracketed words above:

    that evolution on earth can appear to violate the 2nd Law locally because a decrease in entropy as a squid evolves in the sea is offset by a fluctuation of entropy in a galaxy far, far away.
    When Johnny stated...

    Styer's paper claims no such thing. He doesn't even say that evolution appears to violate the 2nd law. In fact, he actually goes out of his way to state that the view that evolution even appears to violate the second law is based on a misunderstanding of what entropy actually is! Where are you getting that Styer says that "evolution...can appear to violate the 2nd law"? Do you have a citation? I have the paper open right in front of me. Maybe you can point me to the right paragraph.
    ...in regards to the paragraph I quoted from Bob, I wonder if Bob could explain further. I wonder if Bob's point wasn't made in the way he meant to mean it.
    fidelis usque ad mortem

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    Quote Originally Posted by NarrowWay View Post
    I like the point that Bob makes about how complex systems tend to break down instead of becoming more structured. Tends to make me think that evolutionists would be in favor of more toxic dump sites and pollution and all. Who's to know that we may be hindering the development of a cosmic mixture of elements that will produce ... It just might be my definition of healthy!! California is such a hypocritical state. Down with the EPA!!!
    Your first sentence was on subject. The second one was a bit of a stretch. After that was pure drivel.

    Got anything to say actually pertinent to the 1 on 1?

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    Thumbs up speechless

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePhy View Post
    Your first sentence was on subject. The second one was a bit of a stretch. After that was pure drivel.

    Got anything to say actually pertinent to the 1 on 1?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorzhik View Post
    There are some interesting things about the argument from information against evolution. One is that Shannon's definition of information fits. Another is that the energy problem is so closely tied to the information problem because information must always be carried on a medium - it cannot exist intrinsic to itself - and the medium itself is subject to the 2nd law's tendency to break things down.

    It's like a symphony of coherence against the cacophony of noise from evolutionists.
    Well except for that pesky ol' sun that provides an energy input to living things (directly or indirectly) that tends to keep things running.
    "Against stupidity, the gods themselves fight in vain", G. Smiley

    "Send money, guns and lawyers..." W. Zevon

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    Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle Stripe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jukia View Post
    Well except for that pesky ol' sun that provides an energy input to living things (directly or indirectly) that tends to keep things running.
    Someone has not read the latest posts or figured out the problems for atheists from all the previous ones ...
    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
    E≈mc2
    When the world is a monster
    Bad to swallow you whole
    Kick the clay that holds the teeth in
    Throw your trolls out the door

    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
    -Bob B.


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    I wonder if ThePhy could give what his answer to the first post would have been.
    Good things come to those who shoot straight.

    Did you only want evidence you are not going to call "wrong"? -Stripe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight View Post
    Has johnny ever posted any info about himself on TOL? What does he do for a living? Is he a teacher, doctor, or scientist? Johnny if you read this and you wouldn't mind telling us a bit about yourself that would be much appreciated. I only ask because it makes the One on One even more interesting knowing a bit about the participants. Thank you in advance if you choose to give us a quick bio, and if not that's fine as well.
    Hi Knight -- here's a little bit more about me!

    I'm John (no one in real life actually calls me Johnny, it was just available here). I grew up in South Florida and attended a local private Christian school. I was raised Christian, but not really affiliated with any single denomination. My family went through different phases (baptist, pentecostal :O, non-denominational, etc.) I did my undergraduate studies at the University of South Florida, double majoring in physics (biomedical concentration) and biology, and graduating in 2005. The fall of that year I started medical school in the midwest, and I'm now a senior medical student doing my externships in south florida. Early this summer I will begin my residency training in internal medicine in south florida, and from there I plan to do a fellowship in either cardiology or gastroenterology. Currently I'm involved with a research project investigating the role of omega-3 fatty acids in cell membrane stabilization and the role of this phenomenon in secondary prevention of coronary artery disease. I'm also in the process of designing a retrospective study looking at the relationship between heart disease and inflammatory biomarkers in patients with chronic inflammation.

    I've been married to my beautiful wife for nearly 2 years now. She's a staunch creationist , but I survive. I like to watch movies, throw down a mean tennis / raquetball game, play video games, make music, and obviously I like to spend way too much time arguing here .

    My religious views probably don't fit into the box of any one denomination, though I attend a presbyterian church. I'm an evolutionist and a determinist (settled view). I'm a pretty strict methodological naturalist, and I believe that the best path to knowledge and understanding of our physical world is through the scientific method. I am sharply critical of any pseudoscience I encounter. Faith does play a role in my life (though I sometimes struggle to precisely define exactly what role that is), as I am a believing Christian.

    That's me in a nutshell!
    Last edited by Johnny; December 9th, 2008 at 06:32 PM.
    “There's nothing I like less than bad arguments for a view that I hold dear.” - Daniel Dennett

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    Bob’s last post was awesome---pointing out that evolutionist authors are, at best, disingenuous and, at worst, intentionally misleading in their articles.

    I read most of the Creation magazines and have to admit that, until now, I was unaware of the distinction between heat and informational entropy as it relates to the 2nd law. It is only human nature that scientific arguments for and against creationism will be on the wrong track from time to time. It could be argued that it is the creationists whom are more willing to change as more information come available. I’d argue as my examples how evolutionists still use the peppered moth and embryonic recapitulation arguments.

    BTW, Johnny sounds like a really interesting guy. His research into omega 3 is also really interesting. In my limited knowledge of nutrition I find only vitamin C to be more important that omega 3 and I take it every day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    Hi Knight -- here's a little bit more about me!

    I'm John (no one in real life actually calls me Johnny, it was just available here). I grew up in South Florida and attended a local private Christian school. I was raised Christian, but not really affiliated with any single denomination. My family went through different phases (baptist, pentecostal :O, non-denominational, etc.) I did my undergraduate studies at the University of South Florida, double majoring in physics (biomedical concentration) and biology, and graduating in 2005. The fall of that year I started medical school in the midwest, and I'm now a senior medical student doing my externships in south florida. Early this summer I will begin my residency training in internal medicine in south florida, and from there I plan to do a fellowship in either cardiology or gastroenterology. Currently I'm involved with a research project investigating the role of omega-3 fatty acids in cell membrane stabilization and the role of this phenomenon in secondary prevention of coronary artery disease. I'm also in the process of designing a retrospective study looking at the relationship between heart disease and inflammatory biomarkers in patients with chronic inflammation.

    I've been married to my beautiful wife for nearly 2 years now. She's a staunch creationist , but I survive. I like to watch movies, throw down a mean tennis / raquetball game, play video games, make music, and obviously I like to spend way too much time arguing here .

    My religious views probably don't fit into the box of any one denomination, though I attend a presbyterian church. I'm an evolutionist and a determinist (settled view). I'm a pretty strict methodological naturalist, and I believe that the best path to knowledge and understanding of our physical world is through the scientific method. I am sharply critical of any pseudoscience I encounter. Faith does play a role in my life (though I sometimes struggle to precisely define exactly what role that is), as I am a believing Christian.

    That's me in a nutshell!
    Thanks Johnny.

    It's always good to know a little about the people debating.
    fidelis usque ad mortem

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