ECT The Real Most Miisunderstood Passage in the Bible John 3

glorydaz said:

What about this?

1 Cor. 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.​

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Do you think that the Lord Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus about the heavenly kingdom?

I find that idea hard to believe since the expectation of many of the Jews was that He was going to rule as the Messiah in the earthly kingdom. He Himself was preaching to the Jews that the earthly kingdom was at hand and that He was in fact the Christ, the Messiah.

Nihilo said:

So you're saying that "the coming of the Lord" (1Th4:15KJV) occurs, and then there's "the Lord's return to set up His kingdom," and those are two different things happening at two different times? Why do you think that?

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I told you. One appearing of the Lord Jesus is described as being imminent while the other cannot be in regard to an imminent appearing.

Jerry Shugart said:

I told you. One appearing of the Lord Jesus is described as being imminent while the other cannot be in regard to an imminent appearing.

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OK, so setting aside for now that we're discussing something immanent almost 2000 years since the Church first started talking about it, what makes the not immanent return not immanent? You mentioned the abomination as one thing, what are the others?

Nihilo said:

OK, so setting aside for now that we're discussing something immanent almost 2000 years since the Church first started talking about it, what makes the not immanent return not immanent?

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Sir Robert Anderson uses the unfaithfulness of Israel as an example to explain the delay of the blessing hope, the time when christians will be caught up to meet the Lord Jesus in the air:

Anderson also says: "Though the purposes of God cannot be thwarted by the sins of men, the fulfilment of them may be thus postponed. And just as the wilderness apostasy of Israel prolonged their wanderings for forty years, although Canaan was but a few days' march from Sinai, so the far more gross apostasy of Christendom has prolonged for nigh two thousand years an era which the Lord and His Apostles taught the early saints to look upon as brief" (Anderson, Misunderstood Texts of the New Testament [Grand Rapids: Kregel Publications, 1991], 16-17).

Nihilo said:

You mentioned the abomination as one thing, what are the others?

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Just look at the 24th chapter of Matthew and see the things which the Lord Jesus said must happen before He returns to the earth.

Jerry Shugart said:

Spoiler

Sir Robert Anderson uses the unfaithfulness of Israel as an example to explain the delay of the blessing hope, the time when christians will be caught up to meet the Lord Jesus in the air:

"Israel's story may teach us something here. When the people were encamped at Sinai, Canaan lay but a few days' march across the desert. And in the second year from the Exodus, they were led to the borders of the land, and bidden to enter and take possession of it. 'But they entered not in because of unbelief'...Does not this throw light on the seeming failure of 'the hope of the Church'? Putting from us the profane thought that the Lord has been unmindful of His promise, are we not led to the conclusion that this long delay has been due to the unfaithfulness of His people upon earth?" (Anderson, Forgotten Truths [Grand Rapids: Kregel Publications, 1980], 83-84).​

Anderson also says: "Though the purposes of God cannot be thwarted by the sins of men, the fulfilment of them may be thus postponed. And just as the wilderness apostasy of Israel prolonged their wanderings for forty years, although Canaan was but a few days' march from Sinai, so the far more gross apostasy of Christendom has prolonged for nigh two thousand years an era which the Lord and His Apostles taught the early saints to look upon as brief" (Anderson, Misunderstood Texts of the New Testament [Grand Rapids: Kregel Publications, 1991], 16-17).

Just look at the 24th chapter of Matthew and see the things which the Lord Jesus said must happen before He returns to the earth.

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But that's what I'm asking about, how many times is He going to return? Is there a Third Coming? 1st Thessalonians 4:15 (KJV) talks about one return, and you're saying that's the first Second Coming, and then there's another one after 1Th4:15KJV?

Nick M said:

8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

So only one taker to explain away what born of the Spirit is? As stupid as the explanation is, at least it was an effort.

The Spirit blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.

That makes no sense.

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Why doesn't it make sense?

The Spirit acts like X. People born of the Spirit also act like X.

Seems logical enough to me.

Wick Stick said:

Why doesn't it make sense?

The Spirit acts like X. People born of the Spirit also act like X.

Seems logical enough to me.

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Gen. 3:5 and Is. 14:14

The verses are both about being "like" God, in a negative way - usurping God.

But surely there is another way to be "like" God, without usurping. The verse already has the answer - they are "born of" God. The child is like the Father, and that is no crime.

Wick Stick said:

The verses are both about being "like" God, in a negative way - usurping God.

But surely there is another way to be "like" God, without usurping. The verse already has the answer - they are "born of" God. The child is like the Father, and that is no crime.

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Now repeat that 6 times and slap your face each time you say "be like God".

Evil.Eye.<(I)> said:

Now repeat that 6 times and slap your face each time.

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I see. You've latched onto Nick's teets and become his disciple.

No point in continuing to converse with you then.

Wick Stick said:

I see. You've latched onto Nick's teets and become his disciple.

No point in continuing to converse with you then.

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I see you haven't been reading my latest OP. I'm sorry I suggested 6 times and "be like God".

Make it 12 and slap yourself every time you read yourself quoting the word "like".

Jerry Shugart said:

This is the kingdom of which you speak, the Universal Kingdom:

"Thine, O LORD is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty: for all that is in the heaven and in the earth is thine; thine is the kingdom, O LORD, and thou art exalted as head above all" (1 Chron.29:11).​

Only those who are "born again" will initially enter the earthly kingdom that will be ruled by the Lord Jesus.

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Lol - so much for that part where I stated "When the Lord returns, He will clean house, Daniel 12; Malachi 3."

glorydaz said:

What about the verse that says flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of God?

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It will have to fit if it is talking about the same kingdom.

So ..........
If "flesh and blood" means a physical mortal ...... then no physical mortal can be in the kingdom, if it is talking about the same kingdom.

And then we have .....

John 18:36 KJV
(36) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.


Jesus was still a flesh and blood man, and still in the world, when He spoke of this particular kingdom in verse 36 above.
So where is this kingdom?

Is every kingdom in all the verses we have used in this thread been talking about the same kingdom?
There are at least 154 verses in the NT that have the word "kingdom".
As you can see, it is difficult to make all the kingdom verses be about the same kingdom.

Jerry Shugart said:

At the beginning of the earthly kingdom only the saved will populate it. And some of those saved will have children and those children will also populate the kingdom. Then by the time of the end of the 1000 years there will be many of those descendants who will rebel (Rev.20:7-9) and it will be those who will be destroyed.

But initially only those who are born again will populate the kingdom. There will be some people in their natural bodies in the kingdom and since they too will have to be born again then we know that being born again has nothing to do with putting on bodies like the Lord Jesus' glorious body.

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This is starting to sound a little made up.
Unless those babies born are born as born again, they cannot be in the kingdom.
No one can be in the kingdom that is not born again. Can't see it, can't sit in it, can't enter it.
Right?

John 3:3-5 KJV
(3) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
(4) Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
(5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Tambora said:

It will have to fit if it is talking about the same kingdom.

So ..........
If "flesh and blood" means a physical mortal ...... then no physical mortal can be in the kingdom, if it is talking about the same kingdom.

And then we have .....

John 18:36 KJV
(36) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.


Jesus was still a flesh and blood man, and still in the world, when He spoke of this particular kingdom in verse 36 above.
So where is this kingdom?

Is every kingdom in all the verses we have used in this thread been talking about the same kingdom?
There are at least 154 verses in the NT that have the word "kingdom".
As you can see, it is difficult to make all the kingdom verses be about the same kingdom.

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There is also ever the need to go beyond the study of a word or two, to the many interconnecting other words and to the interconnecting themes, such things are based on.

This is why some are able to rely mostly on Scripture alone - when such approach it in this way.

The rules of grammar the Greek or the Hebrew bring out can be a great aid in helping with such things as case, tense, mood, etc., in the absence of face to face contact with someone, where sameness in culture and subculture, and tones, and gestures, and facial expression, and all the rest, might make things a bit easier to grasp.

They ARE important for THEIR contribution to THAT.

But said rules of grammar are only a PART of the overall puzzle.

The overall narrative of Scripture is what drives intended meanings.

The thing to do then, during a word comparison, is to add to it, what else is being talked about where each same word is being used.

And what other words are being used.

The result being that one ends up all over the Scripture.

And as a result, that much more familiar with its overall landscape - where the hardware store is, should one need a hammer, down the road a bit.

Where the river is, should one's horse need a nice cool drink of water.

That kind of thing as a metaphor for the "world" of Genesis thru Revelation, in light of Romans thru Philemon.

People of THE Book are people of THE Book.

At the same time, the more one is of THE BOOK in this way, the greater the potential such a person will be misunderstood by anyone less of THE Book, in one way or another.

Or as Paul put that...

1 Corinthians 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

Danoh said:

Lol - so much for that part where I stated "When the Lord returns, He will clean house, Daniel 12; Malachi 3."

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Yes, He will clean house in the "universal" kingdom, not in the earthly kingdom where He will reign. You fail to address the fact that only those who will be "born again" will enter the kingdom when it will first be established.

Tambora said:

This is starting to sound a little made up.
Unless those babies born are born as born again, they cannot be in the kingdom.
No one can be in the kingdom that is not born again. Can't see it, can't sit in it, can't enter it.
Right?

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The Lord Jesus is obviously speaking of adults and not babies when He said that a person must be born again in order to enter the kingdom. When the children of those who remain in their natural bodies are born in the kingdom they will emerge from the womb spiritually alive.

Nihilo said:

But that's what I'm asking about, how many times is He going to return?

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He is only going to return to the earth one more time. Before that, the saints will meet Him in the air and put on heavenly bodies because at that point our destination will be heaven, not the earth.

Jerry Shugart said:

The Lord Jesus is obviously speaking of adults and not babies when He said that a person must be born again in order to enter the kingdom.

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In the verses about "born again", what makes it "obvious" that it is only about adults?

Jerry Shugart said:

He is only going to return to the earth one more time. Before that, the saints will meet Him in the air and put on heavenly bodies because at that point our destination will be heaven, not the earth.

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So when He's in the sky, up in the air, coming in the clouds---that doesn't count as a return to earth? Come on Jerry! What, because He doesn't touch down, it doesn't count as a return? I say, if He's in our atmosphere, that's His Second Coming.