ECT The Real Most Miisunderstood Passage in the Bible John 3

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daqq

Well-known member
Jerry Shugart said:
Law and grace cannot be mixed in regard to salvation. Those two things are mutually exclusive. But living under the law does not mean that those who live under it were saved by works of the law plus faith.

Peter lived under the law and according to his own words his salvation was on the principle of grace. And according to the passage which you quoted Christ is the end of law for righteousness to everyone who believes. That would include all believers, even those who lived under the law. That is why we read this:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

At Romans 3:21-24 Paul speaks of the "gospel of grace" and he says that the righteousness of God apart from law was witnessed by the law and the prophets--v.21 (the OT Scriptures). Then in the next chapters he uses David, who lived under the law, as an example of a man "unto whom God imputes righteousness apart from works" (Ro.4:6-8).
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The very first miracle mixes fresh ("living") water with the water of the purification rites of the Yhudim, (the six stone cisterns were about two-thirds full and were not emptied of their contents before they were filled to the brim), and that is the Good Wine according to the passage. So, yes, the two are mixed in the very first miracle performed by Messiah, (John 2:1-11, see also Luke 5:38-39). The Torah is holy, good, and spiritual, (Rom 7:12, 14), and is our tutor or schoolmaster to bring to Messiah, (Gal 3:24). It is therefore likened to an immersion, that is, an immersion into death, just as the immersion into Messiah is an immersion into his death, (Rom 6:3), for when the Torah is used "lawfully", as Paul says in 1Tim 1:8, one uses it against himself or herself to cut off sin, (Rom 7:25). There are two categories of Torah interspersed within the whole, Horeb and Sinai, which in the physical are the same mountain; but in the supernal way the one is of above just as Jerusalem of above, (that is Horeb), and the other is of below, (that is Sinai). The Torah of Elohim is the Torah of the mind, and is Horeb, and of above: the Torah of sin, (and death), is Sinai and of below. And "using the law lawfully" we may employ the Torah of sin, (Sinai), to cut off sin from ourselves, our households, (house-body-temple analogy), and our "members which are upon the Land", as Paul says, "Mortify the deeds of the body", and again, "Mortify your members which are upon the earth", that is to say, put them "to sleep", or to death, meaning to neutralize those "unruly members" of your house-body-temple because sin dwells in them. So then with the mind I myself serve the Torah of Elohim, (Horeb and of above), but against the flesh the Torah of sin, (Sinai and of below), Rom 7:25.

Moreover, I say, That the heir, as long he is a babe, (in the milk of the Word), differs nothing from a servant, though he be (destined to be) master of all: but is under executive guardians (Torah with Kings and Priests, (Psalms)) and house-stewards (Prophets and Writings) until the appointed time of the Father, (Gal 4:1-2).
 
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Danoh

New member
daqq said:
The very first miracle mixes fresh ("living") water with the water of the purification rites of the Yhudim, (the six stone cisterns were about two-thirds full and were not emptied of their contents before they were filled to the brim), and that is the Good Wine according to the passage. So, yes, the two are mixed in the very first miracle performed by Messiah, (John 2:1-11, see also Luke 5:38-39). The Torah is holy, good, and spiritual, (Rom 7:12, 14), and is our tutor or schoolmaster to bring to Messiah, (Gal 3:24). It is therefore likened to an immersion, that is, an immersion into death, just as the immersion into Messiah is an immersion into his death, (Rom 6:3), for when the Torah is used "lawfully", as Paul says in 1Tim 1:8, one uses it against himself or herself to cut off sin, (Rom 7:25). There are two categories of Torah interspersed within the whole, Horeb and Sinai, which in the physical are the same mountain; but in the supernal way the one is of above just as Jerusalem of above, (that is Horeb), and the other is of below, (that is Sinai). The Torah of Elohim is the Torah of the mind, and is Horeb, and of above: the Torah of sin, (and death), is Sinai and of below. And "using the law lawfully" we may employ the Torah of sin, (Sinai), to cut off sin from ourselves, our households, (house-body-temple analogy), and our "members which are upon the Land", as Paul says, "Mortify the deeds of the body", and again, "Mortify your members which are upon the earth", that is to say, put them "to sleep", or to death, meaning to neutralize those "unruly members" of your house-body-temple because sin dwells in them. So then with the mind I myself serve the Torah of Elohim, (Horeb and of above), but against the flesh the Torah of sin, (Sinai and of below), Rom 7:25.

Moreover, I say, That the heir, as long he is a babe, (in the milk of the Word), differs nothing from a servant, though he be (destined to be) master of all: but is under executive guardians (Torah with Kings and Priests, (Psalms)) and house-stewards (Prophets and Writings) until the appointed time of the Father, (Gal 4:1-2).
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But for one issue, that was one, very informative post.

You're mixing how things worked within 1st Century Biblically Messianic Judaism under the Law, the Prophets, and Israel's New Covenant, with how things worked within what was then also a reality in that 1st Century - God's New Creature: The Body of Christ.

In other words, both the Israel of God, and the Body of Christ, had coexisted for a time - in the 1st Century.

The Israel of God following the Lord as He Himself had submitted Himself to Moses and had reminded His followers (Messianic Jews) to obey Moses.

And The Body of Christ following Paul as he had followed Christ as the Apostle of the Gentiles (formerly lost Jews and Gentiles) this side of Israel's fall, and temporary setting aside until the fulness of this Gentile salvation be come in.

You are mixing those two as if they are one.

Said Israel of God basically died out in that 1st Century, and now awaits for events at some point after Romans 11:25.

There was this, back then...

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Said elect of those two, gradually diminishing away with Unbelieving Israel's temporary fall...until at some point after Romans 11:25...

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

I do greatly appreciate the often great understanding of the Law and the Prophets and of Israel's New Covenant contributed to my own understanding by Messianic Jews, aka MJs, bro.

Insights your Mosaic culture is bound to contribute given the great length of time you live in it, but you're mixing apples with oranges, bro.

You're reading Moses into Paul.

Both are of "the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family IN heaven AND earth is named," - Ephesians 3:14,15...

But not the same people...

The Israel of God is "Thy kingdom COME. Thy will be done IN earth, AS it is IN heaven" - Matt. 6:10.

The Israel of God is - "Lord, wilt thou at this time RESTORE AGAIN the kingdom to ISRAEL?" Acts 1:6.

The Body's is...

Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; ) 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together IN HEAVENLY PLACES IN Christ Jesus: 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things WHICH ARE ABOVE, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 3:2 Set your affection on things ABOVE, NOT on things on the EARTH. 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear WITH HIM IN GLORY.

:think: :)
 
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daqq

Well-known member
Danoh said:
But for one issue, that was one, very informative post.

You're mixing how things worked within 1st Century Biblically Messianic Judaism under the Law, the Prophets, and Israel's New Covenant, with how things worked within what was then also a reality in that 1st Century - God's New Creature: The Body of Christ.

In other words, both the Israel of God, and the Body of Christ, had coexisted for a time - in the 1st Century.

The Israel of God following the Lord as He Himself had submitted Himself to Moses and had reminded His followers (Messianic Jews) to obey Moses.

And The Body of Christ following Paul as he had followed Christ as the Apostle of the Gentiles (formerly lost Jews and Gentiles) this side of Israel's fall, and temporary setting aside until the fulness of this Gentile salvation be come in.

You are mixing those two as if they are one.

Said Israel of God basically died out in that 1st Century, and now awaits for events at some point after Romans 11:25.

There was this, back then...

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Said elect of those two, gradually diminishing away with Unbelieving Israel's temporary fall...until at some point after Romans 11:25...

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

I do greatly appreciate the often great understanding of the Law and the Prophets and of Israel's New Covenant contributed to my own understanding by Messianic Jews, aka MJs, bro.

Insights your Mosaic culture is bound to contribute given the great length of time you live in it, but you're mixing apples with oranges, bro.

You're reading Moses into Paul.

Both are of "the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family IN heaven AND earth is named," - Ephesians 3:14,15...

But not the same people...

The Israel of God is "Thy kingdom COME. Thy will be done IN earth, AS it is IN heaven" - Matt. 6:10.

The Israel of God is - "Lord, wilt thou at this time RESTORE AGAIN the kingdom to ISRAEL?" Acts 1:6.

The Body's is...

Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; ) 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together IN HEAVENLY PLACES IN Christ Jesus: 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things WHICH ARE ABOVE, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 3:2 Set your affection on things ABOVE, NOT on things on the EARTH. 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear WITH HIM IN GLORY.

:think: :)
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As I had said recently to you in another thread: the understanding of "the circumcision and the uncircumcision" is not always what you think when it comes to Paul. In the supernal way your destiny is to become "of the circumcision" because circumcision is of the heart, (Rom 2:28-29), and the flesh profits nothing, (John 6:63). Additionally Messiah has become or has been made the Minister of the circumcision, (Rom 15:8 ASV). You enter in through Paul as part of "the uncircumcision" but that is not where you are supposed to stay. Concerning Romans 11, ethnos, gentiles, nations, heathen, which one is which and where in the entire epistle? I say you do not know for sure or you would not have used Romans 11 they way you do. When the fullness of the heathen have come in, (seven heathen-nations greater and mightier than the sons of Israel), then shall the Deliverer come out of Zion. AND IN THIS MANNER (Rom 11:26a - ουτως) shall all Israel be delivered; each in his or her own appointed times, the time appointed of the Father when a child becomes a son, (Gal 4:1-2), which is a day and hour no man knows: no exceptions to the rule, dear Ephraim, (somewhat kidding bro, lol).
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
glorydaz said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you're saying they are not UNDER the law, but they still maintain the form as a means of tradition. They keep the ceremonies to maintain their heritage or something?
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In order to answer your points I must start with what Paul is saying beginning at the second chapter of Romans. First, he tells us how the Lord will judge men strictly according to their "deeds" or "works." He says that those who "continue in well doing" will receive eternal life and those who do not will obtain wrath (Ro.2:5-10). Then Paul says that the standard by which men will be judged is "law." The Law of Moses for the Jews and the conscience for the Gentile (Ro.2:12-16).

Then Paul continues, saying that when men are judged by the standard of law the whole world is guilty before God because all have sinned and have come short of the glory of God (Ro.3:19,23).

Then Paul continues, speaking of a righteousness of God apart from law. Those who believe receive the imputed righteousness which of God and are justified freely by grace (Ro.3:21-24).

So no believers will be judged in regard to their works and are no longer under law.

The Jewish believers continued to keep the law throughout the Acts period (see Acts 21: 20-26). Many people ask, since Paul was teaching the churches which he founded that they are no longer under the law, (Gal. 3: 23-25) then why did the Jews in the Jerusalem church continue to keep the law?

When Paul went to Jerusalem at Acts 21 he too kept the law, even going so far as to make offerings required under the law (Acts21:26). I believe the following words of Paul explain his actions at Acts 21: 26:

"And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law" (1 Cor.9:20).​

I believe that it was of the will of God for the Jerusalem church to remain under the law, and His reason would be so that He might gain those who were under the law.
 
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daqq

Well-known member
One cannot be brought out from "under the Law" who was never under the Law to begin with, and yet, the Law is our tutor or schoolmaster, (guardian), to bring us to Messiah. On the other hand, if I use the Law lawfully, (which is against myself and not my neighbor or brother), to put to death and mortify the deeds of the body and those "unruly members" of my own house-body-temple; then Torah has become a rod of iron in my hand, (Rev 2:26, 27, which seven heathen-nations are related to the Rom 11:25 statement), and I am therefore no more "under the Law", (especially not the power of its curse because of Messiah and his work at Golgotha), because I have been put to death through the Torah just as Paul says in Gal 2:19 ASV. This goes right back to what was said about an immersion into the Word, (Torah, "the Word", included). And yes, it is related to the topic, for Yohanan clearly says that it is he who water immerses you, (water of the Word), and his writing, (the Apocalypse), is the greatest of the Prophets out of those having been born of women; and without the Torah, and the Prophets who expound Torah, one cannot understand his "water" immersion, (this is the water one must be born of, John 3:5, that is, the water of the Word: the Spirit immersion only comes later at an unknown appointed time).
 
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Danoh

New member
The Law is their identity, as His Kingdom of Priests, Jerry.

Exodus 19:3 And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel; 19:4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself. 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Deuteronomy 4:1 Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you. 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. 4:3 Your eyes have seen what the LORD did because of Baalpeor: for all the men that followed Baalpeor, the LORD thy God hath destroyed them from among you. 4:4 But ye that did cleave unto the LORD your God are alive every one of you this day. 4:5 Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the LORD my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it. 4:6 Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people. 4:7 For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the LORD our God is in all things that we call upon him for? 4:8 And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?

Their New Covenant promising them their being able to keep said Law one day...

Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

When?

When they are His people again.

1 Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Early Acts having been a foretaste of said world of theirs "to come."

Hebrews 2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. 2:2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

But, to each his own, things will be, for now...

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
 
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daqq

Well-known member
Jerry Shugart said:

"For Christ is the end of law for righteousness to every one that believeth" (Ro.10:4).
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That is τελος - "the point aimed at", as if a conclusion or end result, which implies having gone through a process:

Luke 22:37
37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.

Revelation 22:13
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

τελος = "the point aimed at" (of-through the Torah).

Messiah is "the point aimed at" of the Torah, and thus, the Torah was my schoolmaster which brought me to the Master Teacher, "Mr. Torah", the Word. :chuckle:

Galatians 2:19
19 εγω γαρ δια νομου νομω απεθανον ινα θεω ζησω
"For I, by way of the law, died to/by the law, that I might live unto Elohim."

The ASV says basically the same:

Galatians 2:19 ASV
19 For I through the law died unto the law, that I might live unto God.

In this manner am I crucified with Messiah, (Gal 2:20a).
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
daqq said:
That is τελος - "the point aimed at", as if a conclusion or end result, which implies having gone through a process:
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Then translate the verse in such a way whereby it matches the idea you are trying to convey.

Paul also speaks of the believing remnant out of national Israel and says that their election is of grace and therefore "it is no more of works":

"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace" (Ro.11:5-6).​

If no one could theoretically be saved by "works" then why would Paul say that "it is no longer of works"?
 
Nihilo

Nihilo

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Since it hasn't been broached yet, John 3:16 (KJV) and what Paul says in Galatians 2:16 (KJV), in speaking to Peter, saying that both of them were saved by the same principle.

Paul doesn't mention being born twice in Galatians though.
 
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daqq

Well-known member
Jerry Shugart said:
Then translate the verse in such a way whereby it matches the idea you are trying to convey.

Paul also speaks of the believing remnant out of national Israel and says that their election is of grace and therefore "it is no more of works":

"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace" (Ro.11:5-6).​

If no one could theoretically be saved by "works" then why would Paul say that "it is no longer of works"?
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Where did I say anything about "works"? What kind of works can you do if you mortify the deeds of the body and your members which are upon your land? I said an immersion into Torah, which is an immersion into death just as the immersion into Messiah is an immersion into his Testimony and an immersion into his death, (as Paul teaches), but I did not say "works" and especially not "works" of the Law. If you want my understanding of that verse, I apologize but I thought it was clear enough by the meaning of telos:

Here is the TS2009, a somewhat Messianic translation, (see, "The Scriptures" ISR1998)

Romans 10:4 TS2000 W/Footnotes
4 For Messiah is the goalb of the ‘Torah unto righteousness’ to everyone who believes. Footnote: bOr end purpose; not termination.

Or one could simply use the primary definition of telos and it still makes sense:

Romans 10:4
4 For Messiah is the point aimed at (goal) of the Torah for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Now the passage with the footnotes version quoted above; for Paul is actually quoting from the Torah in this passage, (and so I quote the footnotes version so as to include the Torah passage references for the forum reftagger).

Romans 10:1-8 TS2009 W/Footnotes
1 Truly brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to Elohim for Yisra’ĕl is for deliverance.
2 For I bear them witness that they have an ardour for Elohim, but not according to knowledge.
3 For not knowing the righteousness of Elohim, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, they did not subject themselves toa the righteousness of Elohim. Footnote: aOr did not obey.
4 For Messiah is the goalb of the ‘Torah unto righteousness’ to everyone who believes. Footnote: bOr end purpose; not termination.
5 For Mosheh writes about the righteousness which is of the Torah, “The man who does these shall live by them.” Lev 18:5.
6 But the righteousness of belief speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who shall ascend into the heavens?’ ” Deut 30:12 – that is, to bring Messiah down; or,
7 “ ‘Who shall descend into the abyss?’ ” – that is, to bring Messiah up from the dead.
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” Deut 30:14 – that is, the word of belief which we are proclaiming:

Paul is actually quoting a passage from the Torah and expounding it; and he quotes from Deut 30:12-14, and says, THIS IS THE WORD OF FAITH/BELIEF WHICH WE ARE PROCLAIMING (PREACHING). And that Word comes directly from the Torah. Both the righteousness which comes by way of the Torah, (Lev 18:5), and the righteousness which comes by way of faith or belief, (Deut 30:12-14), come from what is written in the Torah. It really does not mater which translation one uses for the above passage so long as the appropriate meaning of telos is understood in Romans 10:4. It is not saying that Messiah is the "termination" of the Torah, especially not from a dispensational viewpoint; for there are yet untold many more to come who will need a schoolmaster to bring them unto Messiah. :chuckle:
 
Nick M

Nick M

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The circumcision are bound to the whole law. Matthew 23, keep all the ceremonies including the weightier matters.
 
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daqq

Well-known member
Nick M said:
The circumcision are bound to the whole law. Matthew 23, keep all the ceremonies including the weightier matters.
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Circumcision is of the heart and Moses teaches the same in the very same chapter which Paul quotes from in Romans 10 above, (Deut 10:16, 30:6). Moses gives the same choice, "Behold, I have set before you this day life and good, death and evil", (Deut 30:15), and that statement is adjacent to what is quoted in Romans 10:6-7 as was just posted above. Paul is therefore no doubt pointing the reader to this passage and highlighting the same teaching from the Torah which he himself is expounding in the Romans 10 passage:

Deuteronomy 30:11-19 KJV
11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? [Rom 10:6]
13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? [Rom 10:7]
14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. [Rom 10:8]
15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

And from the same passage just before the above section:

Deuteronomy 30:6 KJV
6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

And also in earlier in Deuteronomy we read:

Deuteronomy 10:16 KJV
16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

These are such things as go unrecognized and unknown to those who refuse immersion into the Word and Name of the Father, (Torah), and for ignoring these things written by Paul, (and for not checking what he says by looking up the context in the Torah), the same end up viewing the Torah according to the flesh and the carnal mindset which is really no different from the Pharisees and Sadducees of old.
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Nick M said:
The circumcision are bound to the whole law. Matthew 23, keep all the ceremonies including the weightier matters.
Click to expand...

Yes, but not in order to obtain salvation.

Do you believe that Peter, who lived under the law, was saved by grace in the same way that the Gentiles were saved?:

"We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are" (Acts 15:11).​

Do you deny that 'grace" and "works" are mutually exclusive?
 
Nick M

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Galatians 5

3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.

This is needed to inherit their land.
 
D

daqq

Well-known member
Jerry Shugart said:
In what way is the Messiah the "goal" of the Torah unto righteousness to everyone who believes?
Click to expand...

How else will you "see" Messiah in this life Jerry?
Do you not know what your doctrine is missing?

This is essentially the Gospel of Paul:

Luke 16:31 ASV
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, if one rise from the dead.

Luke 24:27 ASV
27 And beginning from Moses and from all the prophets, he interpreted to them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Luke 24:44-46 ASV
44 And he said unto them, These are my words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must needs be fulfilled, which are written in the law of Moses, and the prophets, and the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their mind, that they might understand the scriptures;
46 and he said unto them, Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer, and rise again from the dead the third day;

Without the fore-written evidence from the Torah, Prophets, and Writings, your faith can really only be a fideistic, or blind faith, which is not actually based on any evidence at all. It is no different than someone telling you a story and you simply believing it because you like how the story goes. My faith is not like that at all.
 
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