dodge
New member
Sure I see it you don't understand that the death is both physical and spiritual.
lol, as you whinny at the moon.
ECT The Most Misunderstood Passage in the Bible--Romans 5:12-18
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
- Start date
Sure I see it you don't understand that the death is both physical and spiritual.
lol, as you whinny at the moon.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Let us look at the verse again:
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).
It is impossible that this verse is speaking about people born spiritually dead, as you imagine. Instead, Paul makes it plain that men become spiritually dead when they sin. Your mind is playing tricks on you if you think Paul is saying that all men being born spiritually dead. Here is another translation and again it says that all men die because all men sin:
"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—" (Ro.5:12; NIV).
I can count eight other translations which also use the word "because." The meaning could not be any clearer--that spiritual death came to "all people" BECAUSE all sinned. in order for all people to die spiritually then "all people" must have previously been alive spiritually.
But since you have no place for that happening in your theology you are forced to put a foreign meaning on Romans 5:12 and the meaning which you put on it is laughable. All you prove is that you are willing to defend what some men say about the Scriptures at the expense of what the Scriptures actually say.
You will never see the truth that is revealed at Romans 5:12 until you cease from perverting the plain meaning of that verse.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
So are you saying that the words "all men" are just speaking about "some men"?
glorydaz
Well-known member
Okay, you say the death, spoken of here, is both physical and spiritual. If that's true, then you're claiming there is universal salvation, because "all" shall be "made alive" SPIRITUALLY.
1 Cor. 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1 Cor. 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1 Cor. 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
The only way this text works is if it's speaking of a bodily death and a bodily resurrection, and lo and behold when you read the context, you'll see that's the case.
glorydaz
Well-known member
That's horrible. Incredible what man can come up with when he first begins his vain imaginings. :nono:
Nope.
And a ribbing...
Some in agreement with you on this issue, have yet to figure out that Paul was speaking to members of the Body of Christ.
Others not in agreement with you on this issue, but who also have yet to figure out that Paul was talking to members of the Body of Christ, fail to see their inconsistency.
You are basically alone in your position, bro
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Those who agree with me understand that the words "all men" in this verse is speaking of all men:
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).
Just because this verse is found in an epistle which is addressed to those in the Body of Christ does not mean that the words "all men" are not referring to all men in a universal sense.
I don't even know why you even said anything about the words found at Romans 5:12 being addressed to believers. What is your point?
glorydaz
Well-known member
His point is to cause dissension. Haven't you noticed? Suddenly he's agreeing with Nang etal. :chuckle:
That all HAVE sinned.
In CONTRAST, YOU are ADDING the qualifier that it is referring to WHEN they sin.
Paul's point in is that All ARE SPIRITUALLY dead.
The lost have no spiritual EMPOWERMENT.
Their body houses a "body of this death" that resides IN them - "NO - GOOD THING IN" them.
None.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Maybe only many of the believers were made sinners, and only many of the believers will be made righteous. :think:
Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Yes, "all men" die spiritually when they sin. And in order for "all men" to die spiritually when they sin those same men must be alive spiritually before they sin. So at one time or another "all men" were alive spiritually.
That can only mean that no one is born spiritually dead.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
He didn't. Romans 5:14
Our sins are different than Adam's sin, in that we are not the federal head and representative of the human race, like Adam.
His original sin caused guilt and a death sentence to be imposed upon all his progeny ( as a type of the last "Adam" Jesus Christ) whose obedience unto death, as federal head of His church, caused His righteousness to be imputed to all His spiritual progeny. .
Nang
TOL Subscriber
The ONLY reason our sons do not inherit our sins, is because we are not commissioned by God to be their representatives. Adam and Jesus Christ are the only two Federal Heads ordained by God: Adam to act for the entire human race and Jesus Christ to act for His church.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
John W
Nang
TOL Subscriber
John W
That can mean that within the vacuum you are looking at this from.
But being Greeking the text often appears to be your preferred route - have you considered "Greeking" words like "many" there, in Romans 5 - as to the various aspects of the grammar: case, tense, mood, and so on?
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Say it one more time, Jerry!
It will still not be true.
Adam was created a living being, made of dust, earthly . . But he was not indwelt with the Holy Spirit like the sons of God.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Jerry,
The ONLY reason our sons do not inherit our sins, is because we are not commissioned by God to be their representatives. Our children bear their own guilt for their sins, just as each and every one of us bear our own guilt for our sins.
However all men bear the guilt of Adam, because he represented us as Federal Head when he sinned. My father was not ordained in such fashion and neither was I, but Adam was. Because Adam was a type of Jesus Christ, who was ordained by God, as Federal Head, to represent His church in righteousness.
How come you continuously ask the same (wrong) questions, but never seem to comprehend, or even acknowledge, those who answer you?
Do you just want attention?
Adam and Jesus Christ are the only two Federal Heads ordained by God: Adam to act for the entire human race and Jesus Christ to act for His church. Thus, the original sin of Adam triggered the death sentence upon all men. And the obedience of Christ alone provides everlasting life.
The ONLY reason our sons do not inherit our sins, is because we are not commissioned by God to be their representatives. Our children bear their own guilt for their sins, just as each and every one of us bear our own guilt for our sins.
However all men bear the guilt of Adam, because he represented us as Federal Head when he sinned. My father was not ordained in such fashion and neither was I, but Adam was. Because Adam was a type of Jesus Christ, who was ordained by God, as Federal Head, to represent His church in righteousness.
How come you continuously ask the same (wrong) questions, but never seem to comprehend, or even acknowledge, those who answer you?
Do you just want attention?
Adam and Jesus Christ are the only two Federal Heads ordained by God: Adam to act for the entire human race and Jesus Christ to act for His church. Thus, the original sin of Adam triggered the death sentence upon all men. And the obedience of Christ alone provides everlasting life.
glorydaz
Well-known member
I notice you have no verse that supports that premise.
The type Paul is referring to is further explained here in 1 Cor. 15. The first Adam was earthly, and we bear his image as earthly (a body of flesh). We will bear the image of the heavenly when we die and are resurrected (spiritual body). Death reigned even over those who had not sinned like Adam. So your efforts to turn this into Adam having a sin nature are proven wrong here.
1 Cor. 15:44-50 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
You can't claim sin and righteousness as the type because righteousness only comes upon all them that believe.
Romans 3:22
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
glorydaz
Well-known member
Oh, so Adam was a more effective Federal Head than Christ was? Adam made everyone a sinner and Christ only provides everlasting life to those who believe. That's lame.