ECT The Most Misunderstood Passage in the Bible--Romans 5:12-18

Shasta said:

In this verse, the action, the thing that “happens,” is sin…but “WHO” or “WHAT” is the CAUSE of the “sin”? Grammatically, the pronoun can only refer to one of two words, either Adam or Death.

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That is ridiculous because this is the cause of sin:

Shasta said:

Viewing Romans 5:12 as a single verse in isolation of the context you have come to the conclusion that it means nothing more than “all men commit sins” (individually).

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Then why did you ignore the verse 13, the verse which explains why all men die spiritually as a result of Adam's sin?:

These verses are speaking of "law" in a "universal" sense because the "deaths" being considered are also "universal" in nature: "death passed to all men." The only universal law that has been in effect since Adam is the law which is written in the heart of all men, the same law of which the "conscience" bears witness:

When Adam ate of the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" he had the knowledge of the law written in his heart and his "conscience" bore witness to that law. His very nature had changed. The Lord said: "Behold,the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil " (Gen.3:22). Man now had a "conscience" of the law written in his heart.

All of Adam's descendants would thereafter be born in Adam's likeness and image, also having a "conscience", or an inborn knowledge of God's law:

"And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth" (Gen.5:3).

So Adam was responsible for death coming unto all men because he was responsible for bringing "law" unto all men. When all men after Adam sinned against the law written in their hearts they died spiritually--"and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

We can see that "all men" die spiritually when "all men" sin. That means that "all men" are alive spiritually at the time when they die spiritually. Therefore, "all men" emerge from the womb spiritually alive.

But you say that a person is not alive spiritually when he dies spiritually. You just ignore the fact that the word "death" means "the end of life." Not only do you pervert the Scriptures but you fracture the English language.

Today men are made in the same way whereby Adam was made. This is a description of how Adam was made:


This is what Job says about himself:


According to those who support the myth of Original Sin when the LORD breathed into Adam he received spiritual life but when He breathed into Job He gave him life but not spiritual life. What could possibly be more preposterous than that silly idea?

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Problem is the passage does not assert the issue as being one of WHEN anyone sins.

Rather, that "all HAVE sinned."

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Nang said:

It isn't. It is the corrupted, wicked, human nature that is passed down, that goes astray immediately upon birth. Psalm 58:3

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...however, not all are so corrupt the way Calvinists claim.

James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

That there is a death that happens every time sin revives, and wins out.

Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

2 Corinthians 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Spiritual death is sort of like when it is said of an individual who has allowed trials and tribulations to win out such that "he no longer has that spirit he once had; he is no longer living; he is merely existing; he has no life in him; no fight in him..."

Danoh said:

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Problem is the passage does not assert the issue as being one of WHEN anyone sins.

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What the verse does show us is the fact that "all men" have sinned and as a result 'all men" have died spiritually. Therefore, at one time or another "all men" were spiritually alive. And the only way that can possibly happen is because "all men" were born of the Spirit when they were conceived.

Jerry Shugart said:

What the verse does show us is the fact that "all men" have sinned and as a result 'all men" have died spiritually. Therefore, at one time or another "all men" were spiritually alive. And the only way that can possibly happen is because "all men" were born of the Spirit when they were conceived.

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YOUR illogic.

The spiritual death IS literal.

But it is the issue both of the Alienation FROM God that man is BORN under, and of man's INABILITY TO live free of temptation and or of ending up giving into it, at one point or another.

To this, the Law was added toward setting that dynamic off that man might see that he is a sinner.

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,...

Romans 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Problem is, you insist on your view.

And whenever you do; there is no reasoning with you.

At which point you soon begin to get beligerint towards anyone who does not agree with you, lol.

Proving by that, that the sin nature in you revives, and you die.

You're just to set in this to see it, for what it is

Danoh said:

But it is the issue both of the Alienation FROM God that man is BORN under, and of man's INABILITY TO live free of temptation and or of ending up giving into it, at one point or another.

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Then how do you explain why Adam sinned?

Danoh said:

Problem is, you insist on your view.

And whenever you do; there is no reasoning with you.

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I insist the the Scriptures are correct on this matter. In the following verse the Apostle Paul describes how he was saved:


Here Paul uses the word "regeneration" in regard to his salvation. This word is translated from the Greek word paliggenesia, which is the combination of palin and genesis.

Palin means "joined to verbs of all sorts,it denotes renewal or repetition of the action" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Genesis means "used of birth, nativity" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

When we combine the meaning of the two words we have a "repetition of a birth."

It is obvious that the reference is not to a "physical" rebirth, or the repetition of one's physical birth.

Paul could only be speaking of a repetition of a spiritual birth. And the words that follow make it certain that the "birth" of which Paul is referring to is a "spiritual" birth--"renewing of the Holy Spirit."

If a person is "regenerated" by the Holy Spirit then that means that one must have previously been born of the Holy Spirit. And that happens when a person is conceived so no one emerges from the womb spiritually dead.

I swear, Jer, sometimes your logic is like that of Bullinger's people :chuckle:

(And I don't mean that as an insult).

Where they start with one thing, say, from within Paul's pre-prison Epistles, and end up at a conclusion that is more their own reasoning, then the flow of thought in the passages.

Fact is, the regeneration is from the point that all are born dead in Adam.

It is he who was once alive.

Danoh said:

Fact is, the regeneration is from the point that all are born dead in Adam.

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For some reason you are unable to understand these simple things. Regeneration happens after a person dies spiritually as a result of his own sin. And according to the way that Paul used the word "regeneration" we can understand that his own regeneration was a repetition of a spiritual birth.

So when Paul was regenerated he experienced a repetition of a spiritual birth, meaning prior to being regenerated he had already been born of the Spirit.

Danoh said:

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Problem is the passage does not assert the issue as being one of WHEN anyone sins.

Rather, that "all HAVE sinned."

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

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The fact that "all sinned" is in the past (Grk: aorist) tense was puzzling to me at first too until I read the comment made by Greek scholar A. T. Robertson.

For that all sinned (ep wi pante hmarton). Constative (summary) aorist active indicative of hamartanw, gathering up in this one tense the history of the race (committed sin).

New Testament Word Pictures By A.T. Robertson

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http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/robertsons-word-pictures/romans/romans-5-12.html

The statement is a summary of what has happened to all mankind. Unlike Jerry's "theoretical speculations about certain men not leaving their first estate of spirituality, Paul, in accordance with all NT writers says that we are an entire race of sinners, none excepted.

Jerry Shugart said:

For some reason you are unable to understand these simple things. Regeneration happens after a person dies spiritually as a result of his own sin. And according to the way that Paul used the word "regeneration" we can understand that his own regeneration was a repetition of a spiritual birth.

So when Paul was regenerated he experienced a repetition of a spiritual birth, meaning prior to being regenerated he had already been born of the Spirit.

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It is a repetition insofar as it is another transformation that is every bit as radical and holistic as the one we experienced when we first emerged from our mother's womb and entered a new world. It is not a repetition in kind because the first birth is after the flesh while the second is of the Spirit, just like Jesus said. Our fathers could not give us SPIRITUAL life because only the SON was made "a life-giving spirit"

[Jerry Shugart;4984836]That is ridiculous because this is the cause of sin:

"But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death" (Jas.1:14-15).​

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Yes this explains how individual people sin but Romans 5 was written in part to explain why all men sin, why it is, in other words, that people have this tendency to follow the desires of the flesh and mind rather than their spirits. We do because we are from birth creatures of the flesh and mind. Being that way does not bring active enmity between us and God until our moral conscience develops.

Then why did you ignore the verse 13, the verse which explains why all men die spiritually as a result of Adam's sin?:

"...even as by one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death; and thus death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: for until law sin was in the world; but sin is not put to account when there is no law" (Ro.5:12-13).​

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I was not "ignoring" this verse. I had just not gotten to it.

However, I happened to notice Greek scholar A. T. Robertson's comment on verse 13 which is worded better than the answer I had in mind.

Until the law (acri nomou). Until the Mosaic law. Sin was there before the Mosaic law, for the Jews were like Gentiles who had the law of reason and conscience ( Romans 2:12-16 ), but the coming of the law increased their responsibility and their guilt ( Romans 2:9 ). Sin is not imputed (amartia de ouk ellogeitai). Present passive indicative of late verb ellogaw (-ew) from en and logo, to put down in the ledger to one's account, examples in inscription and papyri. When there is no law (mh onto nomou). Genitive absolute, no law of any kind, he means. There was law before the Mosaic law. But what about infants and idiots in case of death? Do they have responsibility? Surely not. The sinful nature which they inherit is met by Christ's atoning death and grace. No longer do men speak of "elect infants."

Robertson's Word Pictures of the Greek New Testament
http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/robertsons-word-pictures/romans/romans-5-13.html

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These verses are speaking of "law" in a "universal" sense because the "deaths" being considered are also "universal" in nature: "death passed to all men." The only universal law that has been in effect since Adam is the law which is written in the heart of all men, the same law of which the "conscience" bears witness:

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness" (Ro.2:14-15).​

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I do not know why you are saying this. I have never denied that the term "law" can be used as to mean universal moral principles. However, in a spiritual person (i.e., someone with spiritual life), these principles can be revealed by the Holy Spirit. In fact that is his purpose.

And I will put my Spirit in you and move you (or "cause you") to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws (Ezekiel 36:27, 2 Corinthians 3:7)

If people were born of the Spirit from conception the Spirit would move them intuitively to follow the principles of righteousness even before they understood them. I believe Jesus was like this. Since he had been conceived by the Holy Spirit He was in union with God and would have followed God's nature even before he had memorized the commands. I cannot imagine Joseph had to razor strop Jesus for disobedience, disrespect, or fits of temper, can you?

When Adam ate of the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" he had the knowledge of the law written in his heart and his "conscience" bore witness to that law. His very nature had changed. The Lord said: "Behold,the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil " (Gen.3:22). Man now had a "conscience" of the law written in his heart.

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So in order to obtain a working conscience Adam had to commit a sin. Conscience is typically defined as an inner feeling or voice viewed as acting as a guide to the rightness or wrongness of one's behavior. The Bible never says Adam had to sin in order to have a conscience. That is your interpretation of what "knowledge of good and evil" means but there is more than one kind of knowledge.

In the LXX translation of Genesis 3:5 the word "knowing" is ginosko which means "to know by experience." There are many sins I know by experience but I have convictions about wrongness of many sins I have never actually committed. Jesus never sinned yet He his "strong feelings" about righteousness and wickedness are the very definition of conscience. Did he have to engage in evil before He had moral consciousness?

All of Adam's descendants would thereafter be born in Adam's likeness and image, also having a "conscience", or an inborn knowledge of God's law:

"And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth" (Gen.5:3).

So Adam was responsible for death coming unto all men because he was responsible for bringing "law" unto all men. When all men after Adam sinned against the law written in their hearts they died spiritually--"and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

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So what was transmitted from Adam to his descendants was the law of conscience. Only that it were so. Then we would not have to train our children's emotions to be sensitive to right and wrong. Of course, on your view we should not have to since they retain Adam's original spiritual life. In Romans 5 Paul traces the origin of sin and uses that to explain the ubiquity of sin in the human race. Paul does not include the acquisition of "conscience" as part of this causal chain. Grammatically, "all men sin" can be causally linked to either Adam or to (spiritual) death.

We can see that "all men" die spiritually when "all men" sin. That means that "all men" are alive spiritually at the time when they die spiritually. Therefore, "all men" emerge from the womb spiritually alive.

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I have addressed this already but you did not answer my objection. After Adam died spiritually he could not pass on spiritual life to his posterity. Only the Last Adam is a LIFE GIVING spirit.

But you say that a person is not alive spiritually when he dies spiritually. You just ignore the fact that the word "death" means "the end of life." Not only do you pervert the Scriptures but you fracture the English language.

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Your simplistic formula confuses the absence of active Spiritual life with being "dead in trespasses and sin." The status of children is that they are not culpable for whatever wrong they do. As I pointed out in my post on Romans 7, Paul was coveting (a sin) already even before his conscience was awakened through reading the "command." The fact that he was engaged in this kind of study and thought seems to indicate he was not a toddler or even a young child. He was old enough to think abstractly and reflect on his desires and motives. "Coveting" is a characteristic of the carnal mind which is selfish, greedy and ruled by desire. Those are not marks of a spiritual person. The law did not make him sin It simply revealed that what he was already doing was sin.

Today men are made in the same way whereby Adam was made. This is a description of how Adam was made:

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul" (Gen.2:7).​

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Your view that each man is an original unfallen creation is denied by orthodox theology as it has always been understood in the East and West which is why Pelagius, who also denied universality of sin and the Fall was deemed a heretic.

This is what Job says about himself:

"The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life" (Job.33:4).​

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So you believe that when Job says "breath of the Almighty gave me life" he is indicating that the Holy Spirit gave him spiritual life at conception. I do not think men of that time had a well-developed theology that would have differentiated between spiritual life and the life of the soul and body. It would be more appropriate for a man of his time to say simply that "It was God who made me alive."
You are just using this as a "verse of convenience," or, as it is called, "a proof text."

According to those who support the myth of Original Sin when the LORD breathed into Adam he received spiritual life but when He breathed into Job He gave him life but not spiritual life. What could possibly be more preposterous than that silly idea?

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Your silly idea based upon your own mythology. I explained before that to the ancients life was seen as an animating principle manifested as physical respiration. God can give physical life without simultaneously giving them spiritual life. He did for Lazarus.

Shasta said:

It is not a repetition in kind because the first birth is after the flesh while the second is of the Spirit, just like Jesus said. Our fathers could not give us SPIRITUAL life because only the SON was made "a life-giving spirit"

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According to your strange idea being born of the Spirit is a "repetition" of being born of the flesh!

On the other hand, we can understand that the "repetition" must be related to the "renewing" mentioned in the context:


It is obvious that the "repetition" is not to a repeat of being born of the flesh but instead of the Spirit since Paul's reference is to a "renewing of the Holy Spirit."

Joseph Henry Thayer says that the Greek word translated regeneration "denotes the restoration of a thing to its pristine state, its renovation" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Richard C. Trench says that the word has the meaning of "a recovery, a restoration" (Trench, Synonyms of the New Testament).

The word "restoration" means "a bringing back to its original position or condition" (Merriam-Webster.com).

It is impossible that the birth of the Spirit is a "restoration" of a birth of the flesh, as you imagine. Therefore, when a person is regenerated and renewed by the Holy Spirit then that must mean that this represents his being brought back to his original condition of being born of the Holy Spirit. So a person emerges from the womb alive spiritually.

Jerry Shugart said:

According to your strange idea being born of the Spirit is a "repetition" of being born of the flesh!

On the other hand, we can understand that the "repetition" must be related to the "renewing" mentioned in the context:

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5).​

It is obvious that the "repetition" is not to a repeat of being born of the flesh but instead of the Spirit since Paul's reference is to a "renewing of the Holy Spirit."

Joseph Henry Thayer says that the Greek word translated regeneration "denotes the restoration of a thing to its pristine state, its renovation" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Richard C. Trench says that the word has the meaning of "a recovery, a restoration" (Trench, Synonyms of the New Testament).

The word "restoration" means "a bringing back to its original position or condition" (Merriam-Webster.com).

It is impossible that the birth of the Spirit is a "restoration" of a birth of the flesh, as you imagine. Therefore, when a person is regenerated and renewed by the Holy Spirit then that must mean that this represents his being brought back to his original condition of being born of the Holy Spirit. So a person emerges from the womb alive spiritually.

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Only Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit at conception. It is what made Him unique.

"Regeneneration" just means being "born again." We are not conceived by the Holy Spirit in the natural birth but by the seed and egg of our natural parents. In the re-birth the Holy Spirit Himself creates an entirely new kind of life. It is "new" because it is unlike the old one. It is compared to a birth because it is a complete change and involves an emergence of a new self through (baptismal) "water" into the world. In this way it is metaphorically comparable to the first birth. You have made the mistake of assuming that because the first and second births are comparable in some ways then they are comparable in ALL ways. Jesus was just using "birth" as a metaphor for what was going to happen inside believers in the near future. You are confusing and conflating type and antitype.

I have read Trench for many years, since I was in my early twenties, and I cannot imagine that he was trying to say what you are saying. In fact, since he was orthodox I know he would not have approved of your heterodox formulations.

The word "renewing" in Titus 3:5 is anakaínōsis which comes from aná, "up, completing a process," which intensifies kainō, "make fresh, new" The adjective form of the word (kainós) – indicates a new development; a renewal, achieved by God's power.

Romans 12:2 uses the same word to say that our minds must be "renewed." In this verse, renewing the mind leads to transformation which the Greek word "metamorphow" connotes is a fundamental kind of change not merely re-shaping the person to some prior state. Paul was certainly not using the word "renewal" in that verse to mean that God is going to restore our minds to the state that they were in when we were children. Elsewhere Paul explicitly says that we are to lay aside the way we spoke, reasoned and the habits (or "ways") that characterized our experience as children (1 Corinthians 13:11) Of course, on your view, those things are precisely what we are supposed to be restored TO since as children we not only possessed spiritual life (like a believer) but we were without any sin. Well, Jerry, you can revert to childhood if you wish but I do not think you will find that to be a road to spiritual maturity.

BTW you have been saying that children are alive in the Spirit solely by virtue of their natural birth and that our being restored to that state is the goal of the new birth.

Shasta said:

BTW you have been saying that children are alive in the Spirit solely by virtue of their natural birth and that our being restored to that state is the goal of the new birth.

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For some reason you continue to misrepresent what I say. You just cannot seem to grasp these simple things. I never said that children are alive in the Spirit solely by virtue of their natural birth. Instead, I have always said that a person is born of the Spirit when they are conceived.

Shasta said:

I have read Trench for many years, since I was in my early twenties, and I cannot imagine that he was trying to say what you are saying. In fact, since he was orthodox I know he would not have approved of your heterodox formulations.

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So are you saying that Trench is in error when he said that the Greek word translated "regeneration" means "a recovery, a restoration"?

You evidently do not think he is right because you say this:

Shasta said:

"Regeneneration" just means being "born again."

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Therefore, I am sure that you also think that Joseph Henry Thayer is in error when he says that the word means "denotes the restoration of a thing to its pristine state, its renovation" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Of course the meaning given by those Greek experts prove that you are wrong so instead of admitting your error you have tricked your mind into believing that you know more than the Greek experts.

Besides this, in order to cling to your indefensible ideas you asserted earlier that a person is not alive spiritually when he dies spiritually! I guess that you think that the English dictionaries are in error when they define "death" as the "end of life."

When Paul preached to the Jews he "reasoned with them out of the Scriptures." That method is useless with you because in order to defend your mistaken view you are willing to throw your reason to the wind when it suits your purposes.

[Jerry Shugart;4985945]For some reason you continue to misrepresent what I say. You just cannot seem to grasp these simple things. I never said that children are alive in the Spirit solely by virtue of their natural birth. Instead, I have always said that a person is born of the Spirit when they are conceived.

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If they are "born of the Spirit" at conception then they are alive in the Spirit from conception. There are different kinds of "life" in the Bible. There is physical life, soul life (Grk pseuche, Heb. naphesh) and spiritual life (Gk pneuma, Heb. ruach) in which God's Spirit gives life to the human spirit (1 Corinthians 6:17).
In the first birth the egg and seed unite and bring forth a living soul and body. In the Second Birth God gives spiritual life to our human spirit. God can give physical life without giving spiritual life as he did with Lazarus in the NT and certain people in the OT. However, since the promise of the "new birth" could not be initiated until Jesus died and came back from the dead, those individuals could not have received "new life." They were just re-animated.

So are you saying that Trench is in error when he said that the Greek word translated "regeneration" means "a recovery, a restoration"

You evidently do not think he is right because you say this:

Of course the meaning given by those Greek experts prove that you are wrong so instead of admitting your error you have tricked your mind into believing that you know more than the Greek experts.

?

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The scripture being discussed is Titus 3:55
He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.

I went back and looked at what Trench said and you have it wrong. On page 61 of his book Synonyms of the New Testament Trench described first how the word translated as "new birth" (palinggenesis) was used in th First Century.

which has thus in heathen and Jewish Greek the meaning of a recovery, a restoration, a revival, yet never reaches, or even approaches, there the depth of meaning which it has acquired in Christian language
(page 62)

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The definition you have given the word - "recovery" "restoration" and "revival" - is that of pagan Greeks and the Jewish philosopher Philo. According to Trench, the Christian sense of the word is far more radical than a mere restoration or recovery. He then goes on to comment on the same word as used by Jesus:

Beyond the day of resurrection, or, it may be, contemporaneous with it, a day will come when all nature shall put off its soiled workday garments, and clothe itself in its holy-day attire, "the times of restitution of all things" (Acts iii. 21);
(page 63)

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Though Trench appears to be undecided about the exact sequence of his eschatology he notes that "palinggenesis" is used for creating a new heavens and earth. In that day, God is not merely going to restore the earth to its pristine state of terrestrial paradise, He will make a new heavens and earth which will be radically different. He is not doing remodeling. He will burn the earth to its foundation and raise up a new kind of planet.

Therefore, I am sure that you also think that Joseph Henry Thayer is in error when he says that the word means "denotes the restoration of a thing to its pristine state, its renovation" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

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No I am not saying Thayer was in error. I am saying you are. When I read the Lexicon for myself I found that the definition you cited was not that of the Biblical writers. First Thayer defines the word "rebirth" (Grk: palinggenesia) this way:

…properly: new birth, reproduction, renewal or recreation; hence, moral renovation, regeneration, the production of a new life consecrated to God, a radical change of mind for the better

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The underlined portion of the definition (according to Thayer) is the one that applies in Titus 3:5. I do not see anything in this about a restoration to an previous state of spirituality here. It is just as radical a metamorphosis as Trench said it was. The definition you have posted comes later.

Commonly, however, the word denotes the restoration of a thing to its pristine state, its renovation, as the renewal or restoration of life after death, Philo leg. Ad Gaium 41

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Notice that Thayer attributes this definition to the way it was used by the Jewish Greek philosopher Philo and that it applies to his concept of "life after death." Further down, the Lexicon says Philo used the word to describe the renovation of the earth after the flood which was indeed a return to it’s "former pristine state" but it was not really a re-creation.

Besides this, in order to cling to your indefensible ideas you asserted earlier that a person is not alive spiritually when he dies spiritually! I guess that you think that the English dictionaries are in error when they define "death" as the "end of life."

When Paul preached to the Jews he "reasoned with them out of the Scriptures." That method is useless with you because in order to defend your mistaken view you are willing to throw your reason to the wind when it suits your purposes.

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Reason apparently means interpreting scriptures your way. Paul was not alive spiritually before he encountered Christ on the Damascus Rd. Even before he understood that coveting was wrong he was already doing it which proves that he was operating in the carnal mind which is ruled by desire.

The command just revealed to him that what had been going on was wrong. Of course, the condemnation brought by this knowledge only made it worse. He was alive before "the command came" only in the sense that he was not yet "dead in trespasses and sin." He was not dead because he was not yet culpable, not because he had the eternal life of God abiding in him. Through struggling to obey the law out of a carnal mind Paul discovered that he was "carnal sold to sin" like a slave.

Shasta said:

However, since the promise of the "new birth" could not be initiated until Jesus died and came back from the dead, those individuals could not have received "new life." They were just re-animated.

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No one can enter the kingdom unless he is born of the spirit and if no one was born that way until the Cross then how do you explain the fact that Abraham will indeed enter the kingdom? Were not men being given spiritual life when they believed the words of the Lord Jesus of which He speaks here?:

Shasta said:

I went back and looked at what Trench said and you have it wrong. On page 61 of his book Synonyms of the New Testament Trench described first how the word translated as "new birth" (palinggenesis) was used in th First Century.

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You must have overlooked the fact that Trench said it was used that way in "Jewish Greek":

Shasta said:

which has thus in heathen and Jewish Greek the meaning of a recovery, a restoration, a revival, yet never reaches, or even approaches, there the depth of meaning which it has acquired in Christian language (page 62)

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Do you deny that Paul wrote in Jewish Greek?

Shasta said:

The definition you have given the word - "recovery" "restoration" and "revival" - is that of pagan Greeks and the Jewish philosopher Philo. According to Trench, the Christian sense of the word is far more radical than a mere restoration or recovery.

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Yes, it is more radical but he does not deny that it refers to a restoration. Let us look how the Lord Jesus uses the word "regeneration" here:

It will be in the restored kingdom (Acts 1:6) when the Twelve will sit upon their thrones:

Shasta said:

No I am not saying Thayer was in error....The underlined portion of the definition (according to Thayer) is the one that applies in Titus 3:5. I do not see anything in this about a restoration to an previous state of spirituality here. It is just as radical a metamorphosis as Trench said it was. The definition you have posted comes later.

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Of course you fail to mention that his source for that definition is the Latin Vulgate and Augustine, both who denied to idea of a restoration. But Thayer says that "commonly...the word denotes the restoration of a thing to its pristine state, its renovation."

The word "regeneration" is translated the Greek word paliggenesia and that word is the combination of palin and genesis.

Palin means "joined to verbs of all sorts,it denotes renewal or repetition of the action" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

According to BDAG, palin refers "to repetition in the same (or similar) manner, again, once more, anew of someth. a pers. has already done." (Bauer, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd ed., ed. Frederick William Danker. [Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000], 752).

According to Vine's it is in "reference to repeated action" (Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words).

Shasta said:

Reason apparently means interpreting scriptures your way. Paul was not alive spiritually before he encountered Christ on the Damascus Rd.

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I have already explained that a person dies spiritually as a result of his own sin as witnessed by what Paul said here in "bold" about spiritual death:


According to Paul "all men" die spiritually when they sin. That means that "all men" must be alive spiritually before they dies spiritually. And the only way that "all men" can be alive spiritually is by being born of the Spirit when they are conceived.

Shasta said:

He was alive before "the command came" only in the sense that he was not yet "dead in trespasses and sin."

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What kind of death is referred to in these verses?:

Jerry Shugart said:

No one can enter the kingdom unless he is born of the spirit and if no one was born that way until the Cross then how do you explain the fact that Abraham will indeed enter the kingdom? Were not men being given spiritual life when they believed the words of the Lord Jesus of which He speaks here?:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

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Eternal life, the life of God was a promise until the work of redemption was completed by Jesus on the cross and through the release of life in the resurrection. In the gospels Jesus said to the disciples concerning the Holy Spirit "He is WITH you (at that time) but He shall be IN you (John 14:17) The change took place after the resurrection in (John 20:22)

You must have overlooked the fact that Trench said it was used that way in "Jewish Greek":

Do you deny that Paul wrote in Jewish Greek?

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You need to read that whole section over more carefully.

which has thus in heathen and Jewish Greek the meaning of a recovery, a restoration, a revival, yet never reaches, or even approaches, there the depth of meaning which it has acquired in Christian language
(page 62)

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Trench CONTRASTS the usage of the word in the "Jewish Greek" writings with the CHRISTIAN use. He says that the word when used by Christians had a much deeper and more radical connotation than it did when used by non-Christians.

Commonly, however, the word denotes the restoration of a thing to its pristine state, its renovation, as the renewal or restoration of life after death, Philo leg. Ad Gaium 41

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Your definition is that of the pagan writers and "Jewish Greek" philosophers like Philo I do not see any evidence in the NT that Paul was influenced by this philosopher.

Yes, it is more radical but he does not deny that it refers to a restoration.

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If it is a lot more radical why stick with your original weaker definition which came from pagans and philosophers? You cannot obscure with words the fact that you lifted your definition from Thayer without first looking at where he was getting that particular definition from.

Let us look how the Lord Jesus uses the word "regeneration" here:

"And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel" (Mt.19:28).

It will be in the restored kingdom (Acts 1:6) when the Twelve will sit upon their thrones:

"And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel" (Lk.22:29-30).

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Israel will not simply be restored to its former state. A mere "restoration" of the old Kingdom would have an ordinary human descendant of David on the throne and mortal humans acting as his judges and representatives. In that future day the immortal God-king will reign and acting as his representatives will be the twelve apostles (and others) all of whom will have resurrected bodies. Nothing like THAT has ever happened before in the history of the world.

Of course you fail to mention that his source for that definition is the Latin Vulgate and Augustine, both who denied to idea of a restoration. But Thayer says that "commonly...the word denotes the restoration of a thing to its pristine state, its renovation."

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So Thayer used Latin as his primary source to understand the definition of a GREEK word - when Thayer is a Greek linguist? I think not. If you do not respect Thayer's work why do you quote him? BTW Augustine never learned to read Greek. He spoke and read only Latin.

Since you apparently did not read my post I am putting it up again.

Commonly, however, the word denotes the restoration of a thing to its pristine state, its renovation, as the renewal or restoration of life after death, Philo leg. Ad Gaium 41

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Do you know what those underlined words are? They identify the author and literary source where that definition was used. Philo was a Jewish philosopher who wrote and Greek and was heavily influenced by Greek philosophy.

The word "regeneration" is translated the Greek word paliggenesia and that word is the combination of palin and genesis.

Palin means "joined to verbs of all sorts,it denotes renewal or repetition of the action" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

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The parts of the word are easy to see but takes more than than that to define a word. Thayer defines the "rebirth" (Grk: palinggenesia) like this:

…properly: new birth, reproduction, renewal or recreation; hence, moral renovation, regeneration, the production of a new life consecrated to God, a radical change of mind for the better

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The underlined portion is the definition that is specifically applied to Titus 3:5 which we were discussing. It involves a moral change. Are men restored only to the moral level of toddlers, infants and children?

According to BDAG, palin refers "to repetition in the same (or similar) manner, again, once more, anew of someth. a pers. has already done." (Bauer, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd ed., ed. Frederick William Danker. [Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000], 752).

According to Vine's it is in "reference to repeated action" (Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words).

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My copy of Baur's Lexicon defines "panlinggenesia" this way

2. of the rebirth of a redeemed person
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(Bauer, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature

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The bottom line of all this word analysis is that: the word "born again"(palinggenesia) comes from two words palin which means "again" and gennesia which means "birth." This simple analysis uncovers no mystery. It is very common among evangelicals to speak of being "born again" and when most people that use the word do not think that it means to be restored to the "pristine condition" they were in as fetuses. Besides, your idea about how God births children does not involve birth but conception. The word does not say we are "conceived again" but that we are "born again."

I have already explained that a person dies spiritually as a result of his own sin as witnessed by what Paul said here in "bold" about spiritual death:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

According to Paul "all men" die spiritually when they sin. That means that "all men" must be alive spiritually before they dies spiritually. And the only way that "all men" can be alive spiritually is by being born of the Spirit when they are conceived.

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I have already answered this.

What kind of death is referred to in these verses?:

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away" (2 Cor.3:6-7).​

"But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death" (Jas.1:14-15).​

"What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death...For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Ro.6:21,23).​

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I have already answered this too.

I have no doubt that Abraham and a the other saints will enjoy both the new birth and the resurrection. In their day they did not see all that was to come but they related to God through their faith.