Deceptions Christians Believe

Epoisses

Epoisses

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jsanford108 said:
I am going to work through this quote and highlight areas of fault.

"Justification by faith alone excludes all human works as a means of attaining to or apprehending justification, it does not mean that believers produce no works at all:" Correct. It also renders any works as a product of faith, null and void. AKA: useless.
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How could works that are a product of faith in Christ be null and void - long winded blowhard! Anyone who can't get to the point is a waste of my time. Paul stressed justification by faith alone and James stressed works of love as the true fruit of justification. Both were correct.
 
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jsanford108

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Epoisses said:
How could works that are a product of faith in Christ be null and void - long winded blowhard! Anyone who can't get to the point is a waste of my time. Paul stressed justification by faith alone and James stressed works of love as the true fruit of justification. Both were correct.
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Half of my response was your quotes.

I posed the questions of works in relation to Christian nature, which you have not answered.

Paul did not stress justification by faith alone. Never did he say "faith alone." James stressed the role of works with justification. Note the quote of James 2:23, "you are justified by your works, not by faith alone."

You have simply ignored any logical contradictions with your doctrine, and chosen to resort to name calling. As well as dismissing reason as "wasting of time."


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Epoisses

Epoisses

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jsanford108 said:
Half of my response was your quotes.

I posed the questions of works in relation to Christian nature, which you have not answered.

Paul did not stress justification by faith alone. Never did he say "faith alone." James stressed the role of works with justification. Note the quote of James 2:23, "you are justified by your works, not by faith alone."

You have simply ignored any logical contradictions with your doctrine, and chosen to resort to name calling. As well as dismissing reason as "wasting of time."


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Paul did stress justification by faith without the works of the law over and over and over. We are never justified by our works but a true justified believer will always produce works of the Spirit or works of love. You're just not capable of comprehending it. If you believe that you are justified by your works then you are fallen from grace. The works that James describes in chapter 2 were not works of the law they are works of love. He even used Rahab as an example of someone who was justified by works and her works were lying to her own people to protect the Hebrew spies. See I can make James say we are justified by lying!
 
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jsanford108

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Epoisses said:
Paul did stress justification by faith without the works of the law over and over and over. We are never justified by our works but a true justified believer will always produce works of the Spirit or works of love. You're just not capable of comprehending it. If you believe that you are justified by your works then you are fallen from grace. The works that James describes in chapter 2 were not works of the law they are works of love. He even used Rahab as an example of someone who was justified by works and her works were lying to her own people to protect the Hebrew spies. See I can make James say we are justified by lying!
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Provide a quote of Paul saying such a thing as "faith alone."

Explain how we are never justified by works, when James says we are.

I never said faith+works meant "works of the law."

And you say you can make James say such things, yet you can't explain the contradictions within your doctrine.

Faith+works is far more Scriptural than faith alone. It isn't my comprehension that is lacking; it is the mental gymnastics you go through to convince yourself your unbiblical doctrine is true, that is impressive.


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patrick jane

patrick jane

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jsanford108 said:
Provide a quote of Paul saying such a thing as "faith alone."

Explain how we are never justified by works, when James says we are.

I never said faith+works meant "works of the law."

And you say you can make James say such things, yet you can't explain the contradictions within your doctrine.

Faith+works is far more Scriptural than faith alone. It isn't my comprehension that is lacking; it is the mental gymnastics you go through to convince yourself your unbiblical doctrine is true, that is impressive.


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How do your "works" stack up? You think God is impressed? :rotfl:
 
glorydaz

glorydaz

Well-known member
jsanford108 said:
Faith+works is far more Scriptural than faith alone. It isn't my comprehension that is lacking; it is the mental gymnastics you go through to convince yourself your unbiblical doctrine is true, that is impressive.
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According to Paul, you can glory in your works, but not before God. So you can glory in your works before other men. They can see your works and assume you might be doing those out of faith. God, however, can see into your heart....when He sees your faith, He considers you justified. Our works are reckoned as debt to God...they are only what is owed Him. I think this text makes it very clear.

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Romans 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,​
 
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Lazy afternoon

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Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.



Romans 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Psa 119:1 ALEPH. Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.
Psa 119:2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
Psa 119:3 They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.
Psa 119:4 Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.
Psa 119:5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
Psa 119:6 Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.
Psa 119:7 I will praise thee with uprightness of heart, when I shall have learned thy righteous judgments.
Psa 119:8 I will keep thy statutes: O forsake me not utterly.
Psa 119:9 BETH. Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.
Psa 119:10 With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments.
Psa 119:11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.
Psa 119:12 Blessed art thou, O LORD: teach me thy statutes.
Psa 119:13 With my lips have I declared all the judgments of thy mouth.
Psa 119:14 I have rejoiced in the way of thy testimonies, as much as in all riches.
Psa 119:15 I will meditate in thy precepts, and have respect unto thy ways.
Psa 119:16 I will delight myself in thy statutes: I will not forget thy word.
Psa 119:17 GIMEL. Deal bountifully with thy servant, that I may live, and keep thy word.
Psa 119:18 Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law.
Psa 119:19 I am a stranger in the earth: hide not thy commandments from me.

You need to understand it Glorydaz, your teachers deceived you into the do nothing theory.

LA
 
L

Lazy afternoon

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During the second world war Christians were killing each other.

The German Christians had sworn an oath to their father of the nation who was a demon.

So that just shows that a Christian can be lost as they were, by their bad works.

LA
 
glorydaz

glorydaz

Well-known member
Lazy afternoon said:
During the second world war Christians were killing each other.

The German Christians had sworn an oath to their father of the nation who was a demon.

So that just shows that a Christian can be lost as they were, by their bad works.

LA
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Haven't you heard? Not everyone who claims to be a Christian is really a Christian?

I thought everyone knew that. Paul certainly knew. 2 Corinthians 11:26
 
meshak

meshak

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glorydaz said:
Haven't you heard? Not everyone who claims to be a Christian is really a Christian?

I thought everyone knew that. Paul certainly knew. 2 Corinthians 11:26
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so true!

we finally agree!

That's why Jesus says we know them by their fruit.

You ought to know fruit is what you produce witch is works, practice.
 
Zeke

Zeke

Well-known member
jsanford108 said:
I have no clue what you are even trying to relay here, buddy. Your punctuation and/or grammar is throwing me off. Yet, I will try and ascertain your meaning from the text.

The crucifixion didn't happen outside the kingdom of God, which is within man (as an individual)? That makes no logical sense. This infers that no actual, literal sacrifice took place. And if that is the case, then one could argue that no events within the Bible took place, and are the inventions of several authors over centuries. Who, miraculously, were all able to cross reference each other, despite the limited amount of physical copies of texts. Furthermore, that four of these men, the Gospel writers, were able to invent the exact same story, years apart. And, that the authors of the letters were able to have been able to cross reference each other and spread a belief in these Gospels, as well as preach on a metaphorical or allegorical event, with such conviction, that for over 1500 years, everyone thought it was literal. There is a serious lack of evidence and logic within such a theory/proposition.

"You look outwardly based on time;" Are you saying that I look outwardly based on time, or that one should look outwardly based on time? Add on to that, what does that mean to "look outwardly based on time?"
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Either you are the temple of the God of living or you are still waiting for some outward event based on flesh and blood traditions, no one died on a cross to save you. The whole drama happens within which isn't logical to the first Adam I agree 2Cor 3:6.
jsanford108 said:
I never said works alone justified a person. And you have not provided any evidence against works sustaining faith.

None of your verses provided say "faith alone." They discredit works alone, but not faith with works. How do you handle the entire Epistle of James? Especially James 2:24?! (In case you didn't know, this verse is the only one where "faith alone" appears, and is preceded by the words "not by." It kind of destroys the "faith alone" doctrines)
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God's Truth

God's Truth

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jzeidler said:
There are so many deceptions being taught in pulpits today. One of those deceptions is that grace is just to get you saved then you have to work at everything else. This deception spits in the face of Christ's work on the cross and the truth that is grace:

https://soundcloud.com/freedomsfort...-grace-for-salvation-work-for-the-rest-part-1
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All who want to be saved must do what the Way says to do.

God did not nail obedience to the cross.

Jesus came to earth and gave the new guidelines and regulations for the New Covenant, and he told us what we must do to be saved, what we must do to be born again.


…unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven; Matthew 18:3.

You will never enter unless you become like a little child.

You will not be forgiven unless you forgive your brother and sister from the heart.

…unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart; Matthew 18:35.
 
Angel4Truth

Angel4Truth

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meshak said:
so true!

we finally agree!

That's why Jesus says we know them by their fruit.

You ought to know fruit is what you produce witch is works, practice.
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Unless youre a serious stalking and can read peoples minds and prayers, you are equipped to be a fruit inspector, past whether or not someone is teaching outside the word, its how i know youre a wolf. I search the scriptures and it tells me so, since you deny many of them.
 
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jsanford108

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Angel4Truth said:
Here is obedience:

John 6:28 Then they inquired, “What must we do to perform the works of God?” 29 Jesus (not meshak and other wolves) replied, “This is the work of God: to believe in the One He has sent.”
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And the Ten Commandments, and charity, and care for the infirm, etc....


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